How shall the Grand Inquisitor Die?

MWW shows his skill as an author particularly in his great characterizations. Zhaspar Clyntahn is an excellent foil & villain, a mix of Savonarola and Stalin, who appears to be internally logical in his fanaticism against heresy but a ruthless bureaucratic in-fighter forever taking every advantage.

What is delicious about him is the question, is he actually evil? While we know he is SINFUL from his hypocrisy and gluttony, we also know that many of his peers and predecessors were equal to his sins. Does his sins make him evil by themselves, I say no, since one can repent from one's sins.

He follows the "Holy Writ" or, rather, he follows the portions of the book he finds convenient for the situation. Is it his fault that the book itself is evil in intent, especially in those places he likes? Is that belief and action evil or rather the fruits of an evil tree?

From the outside, his actions are indeed evil. He forced the attack on Charis because he feared the foreseeable results on his theocracy from inaction. The attack was civilly illegal and the sought for outcome would have been the wholesale slaughter of innocents, yet by the logic of his theocracy, it would have been a sacrifice of a portion to preserve the whole. All of the subsequent actions could be seen as being forced upon him, as de facto leader of the CoGA, to save a 1,000 year, God-established order.

So, the question before this insubstantial court is this; is Zhaspar Clyntahn EVIL and deserving of a pain-filled demise?

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OH, YOU BETCHA! Bring it ON!

He, Zhaspar Clyntahn, may be able to justify his actions internally and he may argue his case in front of the Ultimate Inquisitor BUT, by evidence piled high and deep, he, in his actions, has brought pain, suffering and death against innocents and that is EVIL Incarnate!

My choice of outcome is for him, upon defeat and perhaps the revelation of the lies he has followed, to suffer an incapacitating attack of apoplexy, and to live out a life deprived of all the sinful pleasures he so indulged in. A lengthy period of contemplation of the EVIL that his actions had wrought would be very appropriate indeed!

Zhaspar Clyntahn is an excellent foil & villain, a mix of Savonarola and Stalin

Much more Hitler, than Stalin. Stalin was ruthlessly pragmatical, and always prefer to see things as they really are; he never assumed that true is what he wanted to be true (as Clyntahn did).

From the outside, his actions are indeed evil.

The main problem, is that he is ineffectively evil. Clyntahn's actions are inefficient; he do a lot of things not because they are logical, but just because he wanted to do them - for example, as devastation of Siddarmark. He is completely unable to admit that he may be wrong and different strategy is needed.

You compared him with Stalin - well, Stalin never act only on personal assumptions and likes/dislikes. If some strategy didn't work, Stalin re-evaluated the situation, changed the strategy and always tried to have as much space for possible maneuvering as he could. If Clyntahn was more like Stalin, he would definitely not charge into the Holy War without trying less radical measures; simply because the rushed secnarios left him no space for "something go wrong, we need to re0evaluate and change strategy"

The main problem of Clyntahn - he is completely unable to saw his own mistakes and change the main course. All who opposed him, he wanted to destroy; he didn't even think about the other possibilites, such as control them, or even turn them into willing supporters.

Dilandu wrote:Well, the question is - should he die? Would this be the sufficient punishment?

For my opinion, the much better punishment would be to declare Clyntahn officialy dead, and actually send him in some lunatic ayslum as "some stranger, who gone completely mad and imagined himself the late Grand Inquisitor - could you believe that?" Its much more... elegantly cruel - force Clyntahn to live the rest of his days as a simply lunatic.

"The Man in the Iron Mask".

The practical way to kill him is to subject him to the Nahrmann Process and use his stored memories as an intelligence source. When he stopped and thought about it he practiced OPSEC well enough to be sure he didn't know sensitive information, but (1) he was not the type to stop and think most of the time, and (2) personalities like his tend to be control freaks who demand reports and explanations of everything.

In addition to rolling up his network the process might turn up some useful Temple access codes or secret information about those mysterious power signatures.

Come to think if it, keeping him alive long enough to capture might be the biggest problem. He's a candidate for pulling a Berlin bunker kind of escape.

Clyntahn will die in a spectacular, but completely unexpected, fashion. RFC has spent far too much time developing him as a complete villain to let him go in a common way - like at the hands of Merlin.

More than likely, Clynthan, Merlin, and possible Nimue, will die in a spectacular fashion just as Clyntahn achieves his life goal and supreme power. Sick plot twist and all...

Clyntahn seizing absolute power would arguable be worse than death. What if the thing under the Temple is an Osterhagen Key? That would explain why it can only be used once.

I, for one, will be very disappointed if the Zhaspar Grand Fornicator does not snuff it in this series. So, let us speculate: how shall he die?

While there is a part of me that goes along with the "let's paralyse him, then let him watch the future unfold", I tend to think more along the following lines:

Capture him (without assistance from Merlin or Nimue if possible). Stick him on a small island with a small shelter, and some VERY basic supplies. About a week later, Merlin approaches in his speeder, with the speeder all lit up. He puts in hover mode a couple thousand feet up. He then descends via tractor beam. At that point, Merlin informs Zhasper that he (Zhasper) has messed up royally. at the end, to drive the point home (pun most definitely intended), Merlin runs his sword through Zhasper's heart.

Charybdis wrote:MWW shows his skill as an author particularly in his great characterizations. Zhaspar Clyntahn is an excellent foil & villain, a mix of Savonarola and Stalin, who appears to be internally logical in his fanaticism against heresy but a ruthless bureaucratic in-fighter forever taking every advantage.

What is delicious about him is the question, is he actually evil? While we know he is SINFUL from his hypocrisy and gluttony, we also know that many of his peers and predecessors were equal to his sins. Does his sins make him evil by themselves, I say no, since one can repent from one's sins.

He follows the "Holy Writ" or, rather, he follows the portions of the book he finds convenient for the situation. Is it his fault that the book itself is evil in intent, especially in those places he likes? Is that belief and action evil or rather the fruits of an evil tree?

From the outside, his actions are indeed evil. He forced the attack on Charis because he feared the foreseeable results on his theocracy from inaction. The attack was civilly illegal and the sought for outcome would have been the wholesale slaughter of innocents, yet by the logic of his theocracy, it would have been a sacrifice of a portion to preserve the whole. All of the subsequent actions could be seen as being forced upon him, as de facto leader of the CoGA, to save a 1,000 year, God-established order.

So, the question before this insubstantial court is this; is Zhaspar Clyntahn EVIL and deserving of a pain-filled demise?

...

...

...

...

OH, YOU BETCHA! Bring it ON!

He, Zhaspar Clyntahn, may be able to justify his actions internally and he may argue his case in front of the Ultimate Inquisitor BUT, by evidence piled high and deep, he, in his actions, has brought pain, suffering and death against innocents and that is EVIL Incarnate!

My choice of outcome is for him, upon defeat and perhaps the revelation of the lies he has followed, to suffer an incapacitating attack of apoplexy, and to live out a life deprived of all the sinful pleasures he so indulged in. A lengthy period of contemplation of the EVIL that his actions had wrought would be very appropriate indeed!

Oh, do you want the list of ways I have wanted to kill Zhaspahr Clyntahn? I've had a long time to invent harrowingly painful ways for characters to die - I'm just porting over ideas I've already thought up for Cordelia Ransom, Arnold Giancola, and High Ridge!

* Boil him in oil. Make sure you heat the oil before you drop him in, though.

* Flay off his skin, drench him in salt, and pour on the vinegar.

* Splinch him. In the most painful number of pieces possible.

* Vivisection. Vivisection is always good. Don't use anaesthesia.

* Tie him to four wild horses. One limb per horse. Add another for the head. Then have people rattle grain buckets in a circle around them. His end should be fairly satisfying, and it automatically rewards the horses for a job well done.

* Platypus venom. Morphine can't dull the pain. No painkiller can. It's basically taking all the pain knobs on your body, turning them past maximum, and then ripping them off. Sounds fitting.

* Hung, drawn and quartered. Hey, if it worked for the British Empire.... don't forget the hot coals in the belly, okay?

* Have a draft dragon step on him. Give said dragon cleats. Better yet, have the dragon eat him. On the other hand, that's unconscionably mean to the poor dragon...

* The Punishment of Schueler. I think the irony is the best thing of all.

I'm sure I'll come up with more along the way! *sharklike smile*

Charybdis wrote:So, the question before this insubstantial court is this; is Zhaspar Clyntahn EVIL and deserving of a pain-filled demise?

Answer to your question (part one). Yes, he is certainly evil.

Answer to your question (part two). If it happens on it's own? Maybe. To have it imposed on him by others, is to make them stoop to his level, and to leave others with the question: are they REALLY different from Zhasper, or do they just show it less. I understand the desire for vengeance. However, giving in to it just diminishes you.

boballab wrote:My theory is that Clyntahn will pull a Robespierre and die by his own reign of terror. I have thought all along that Clyntahn will finally have Ducharin assassinated (remember that Clyntyn has already hinted at doing just that), when that happens it backfires causing a revolt in Zion. I also think it will be Rayno that does him in, basically doing a deal with the Chancellor and Magwair to take him out in an effort to save their own power and position. Be really interesting watching Rayno having Clyntahn put to the question and implementing the full punishment of Scheuler on him.

This makes a great deal of sense given that Duchairn must now be really, really popular among the secular inhabitants of Zion. Clyntahn won't allow large Temple Guard concentrations which means he may not be able to put down a revolt. Rayno might slip a knife in his back, or the rest of the Temple might simply hand him over to the mob to save themselves.