Haven sector United against League

What do you think of the prospect of the entire Haven sector, at one point, uniting against the entire Solarian League - especially if the Battle of Manticore had not happened and cost the sector so many lives and ships and the Andermani would have been brought onboard. And what about arming and training Torch with their own Navy with GA tech?

What about now? Even Beowulf becoming a part of the GA? Could a completely united Haven sector grow to withstand even a League assault in five years that has gotten itself back on balance?

I'm talking about a herculean effort to arm the entire Haven sector in one goal against the arrogant corrupt Solarian League. Could the Haven sector then have taken the League down by Whitehaven method of straight to the heart instead of the finesse of the Harrington plan?

The Haven sector had plenty of potential power for decades. And the Manty way of alloting plenipotentiary powers to its officers was a cut above most navies and instrumental to their success.

What do you think, could the entire Haven sector plus Beowulf have united against the League long ago?

I am aware that a lot would have had to happen and not happen. (Like Saint Just-Pierre NOT happening. Nor High Ridge, etc.) But, the potential of the Haven sector was there.

We almost have a united Haven sector now. But what if it had truly united long ago, completely, with one goal in mind -- the corrupt League?!

What if?

Could the 800-lb gorilla have been forcibly brought to its knees by a 100-lb (soaking wet) Haven sector long ago?

I guess it could have been called the Havenite League?

The United Haven Sector?

The Empire of Nations? lol

before buttercup and the invention of SD (P), i'd say doubtful.

post buttercup? well we've seen that at the second battle of manticore.

they don't need apollo to swat the SLN, helpful though it may be, just lots and lots of missile pods.

IF buttercup had gone as planned and Saint Just and High Ridge not caused their trouble, and IF Elizabeth was willing to settle for japan WW2 (i.e half flatend but huge american investement which has made it a world leader in then new techs).

then yes it is possible.

but that is a lot of "ifs"

Dauntless wrote:
before buttercup and the invention of SD (P), i'd say doubtful.

post buttercup? well we've seen that at the second battle of manticore.

they don't need apollo to swat the SLN, helpful though it may be, just lots and lots of missile pods.

IF buttercup had gone as planned and Saint Just and High Ridge not caused their trouble, and IF Elizabeth was willing to settle for japan WW2 (i.e half flatend but huge american investement which has made it a world leader in then new techs).

then yes it is possible.

but that is a lot of "ifs"

True that - lots of ifs. But I wonder if there was ever at least one perfect moment - a sweet spot if you will. You have to agree that it's an interesting proposition.

BUT. Is the odds of it happening more a diamond in the rough or a rough diamond?

Should it not be considered now, lest the Harrington Plan fail and the 800-lb gorilla comes back in several years after gaining even more tonnage - as a backup plan? Me shudder at the thought of a Solarian Bolthole. I can't see anyone in the Haven sector not wanting to be invited to the big dance to have a tap on dying League ashes.

A mistake could be made there, allowing the League to play possum.

What could possibly be the casus belli? Subtracting out Alignment provocations, there's very little that could provide a sufficient unifying force to sufficiently justify opposing the League militarily.

Remember, the League's modus operandi has always been to go after single system or small clusters that have little political power. An untainted Republic of Haven is neither. OFS would have steered clear of Haven and its daughter colonies. Likewise, Manticore is so high profile that it's obviously off limits.

What would probably end up happening is that OFS would nibble at the exposed periphery of the Haven Quadrant, but would steer clear of the high risk areas. Eventually, their gradual expansion would encyst the independents. Several such polities already exist in the League, so Manticore, Haven, etc. would be just the latest.

Duckk wrote:What could possibly be the casus belli? Subtracting out Alignment provocations, there's very little that could provide a sufficient unifying force to sufficiently justify opposing the League militarily.

Remember, the League's modus operandi has always been to go after single system or small clusters that have little political power. An untainted Republic of Haven is neither. OFS would have steered clear of Haven and its daughter colonies. Likewise, Manticore is so high profile that it's obviously off limits.

What would probably end up happening is that OFS would nibble at the exposed periphery of the Haven Quadrant, but would steer clear of the high risk areas. Eventually, their gradual expansion would encyst the independents. Several such polities already exist in the League, so Manticore, Haven, etc. would be just the latest.

Casus belli?

Why, Solarian arrogance. An aged distaste of all neobarbs --> of all things Solarian --> of all things Havenite sector neobarb.

Not to mention the innate fears of the Havenite sector of the OFS' small drug of choice -- assimilating single systems or small clusters -- to grow into a much bigger addiction as drugs do, resulting in a foray into the consumption of a much more powerful drug - bigger systems with bigger highs of wormhole junctions and systems that weren't just breaking even.

And... for the pleasure of pinning the donkey's tail on an arrogant gorilla.

cthia wrote:What do you think of the prospect of the entire Haven sector, at one point, uniting against the entire Solarian League - especially if the Battle of Manticore had not happened and cost the sector so many lives and ships and the Andermani would have been brought onboard. And what about arming and training Torch with their own Navy with GA tech?

If the Battle of Manticore (and the resulting diplomatic visit of Honor Harrington) had not happened, then the Haven Quadrant would definitely not have united against the Solarian League. Just not plausible.

What about now? Even Beowulf becoming a part of the GA? Could a completely united Haven sector grow to withstand even a League assault in five years that has gotten itself back on balance?

Now, the entire Haven Quadrant (or rather, all of the significant military forces in the Haven Quadrant) have united against the Solarian League. None of the other systems matter to the war. And they are winning. The League won't have five years to get back on balance.

If you hypothesize that something big happens that allows the League to get back on balance, then the Haven Quadrant probably loses. Again, the other systems in the Quadrant don't really matter--the only nations with the economic and technological ability to build a useful force in this kind of war are already united.

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:What do you think of the prospect of the entire Haven sector, at one point, uniting against the entire Solarian League - especially if the Battle of Manticore had not happened and cost the sector so many lives and ships and the Andermani would have been brought onboard. And what about arming and training Torch with their own Navy with GA tech?

If the Battle of Manticore (and the resulting diplomatic visit of Honor Harrington) had not happened, then the Haven Quadrant would definitely not have united against the Solarian League. Just not plausible.

What about now? Even Beowulf becoming a part of the GA? Could a completely united Haven sector grow to withstand even a League assault in five years that has gotten itself back on balance?

Now, the entire Haven Quadrant (or rather, all of the significant military forces in the Haven Quadrant) have united against the Solarian League. None of the other systems matter to the war. And they are winning. The League won't have five years to get back on balance.

If you hypothesize that something big happens that allows the League to get back on balance, then the Haven Quadrant probably loses. Again, the other systems in the Quadrant don't really matter--the only nations with the economic and technological ability to build a useful force in this kind of war are already united.

Not exactly - it is less the Andermani and their building capacity. Which doubles my wonder as to why Andermani ship building capacity isn't tapped now?

But it was meant to be more of an exercise in "could" a united Haven sector have been successful against the League instead of "would" they unite.

cthia wrote:What do you think of the prospect of the entire Haven sector, at one point, uniting against the entire Solarian League - especially if the Battle of Manticore had not happened and cost the sector so many lives and ships and the Andermani would have been brought onboard. And what about arming and training Torch with their own Navy with GA tech?

What about now? Even Beowulf becoming a part of the GA? Could a completely united Haven sector grow to withstand even a League assault in five years that has gotten itself back on balance?

I'm talking about a herculean effort to arm the entire Haven sector in one goal against the arrogant corrupt Solarian League. Could the Haven sector then have taken the League down by Whitehaven method of straight to the heart instead of the finesse of the Harrington plan?

The Haven sector had plenty of potential power for decades. And the Manty way of alloting plenipotentiary powers to its officers was a cut above most navies and instrumental to their success.

What do you think, could the entire Haven sector plus Beowulf have united against the League long ago?

In the very implausible event that the Haven sector united against the League then starting sometime during the ceasefire they were definitely able to defeat the SLN. I'm pretty sure that even with towed pods the entire prewar Peeps, plus RMN, plus Andies could not have taken the entire SLN there were just too many Scientists and Vegas - despite that Haven sector SDs being maybe over twice effective in SDM missile combat. And the towed pods will let you knock off even more. (Unless somehow they could pulled off a defeat in detail; chewing up the SNL piecemeal allows you to get a lot more use out of towed pods)

But there's still not enough manpower in the entire Haven sector to occupy and hold down the League after destroying their navy. The GDP of the systems of the League is still multiples of the GDP of the whole Haven sector; and the manpower discrepancy is even larger.

cthia wrote:Not exactly - it is less the Andermani and their building capacity. Which doubles my wonder as to why Andermani ship building capacity isn't tapped now?

But it was meant to be more of an exercise in "could" a united Haven sector have been successful against the League instead of "would" they unite.

The Anderman Empire is not part of the Haven Quadrant. And I don't think Silesia is part of it either. As for why the Andermani ship building capacity is not being tapped for the war against the Solarian League, it's because the Grand Alliance doesn't need it. They can defeat the League without the Andermani.

So this is supposed to be a purely hypothetical situation of the entire Haven Quadrant (minus the League members which are in the Quadrant, I assume) uniting against the Solarian League in, say, 1900 P.D? If the League gave the quadrant time to build up the necessary shipyards and fleet, then yes, they could win. But the situation is completely implausible. You are assuming that (a) the entire quadrant unites (impossible) and (b) that the League lets them build a fleet larger than the active forces of Battle Fleet. It's a ridiculous scenario, deliberately set up so that they would have a chance of beating the League.

There are all those independent single star system-polities between Haven and Manticore that are also part of the Haven Sector, but like Cthia said, except for many of them being members of the Manticoran Alliance, they do not really amount to much. The significant powers - the Manticoran Alliance and the Republic of Haven ARE united against the League in the Grand Alliance.