The Zerg Swarm of Harchong

n7axw wrote:

TheOneLogician wrote:Given that Harchong seems to be adopting the swarm tactic, ...

I think you're wrong on several points.

1) Harchong is NOT "adopting" a new tactic, massed pikes is a traditional and well-proven pre-gunpowder/early-gunpowder formation. Google "Pike square" for details.

2) Massed Piles are anything but a "swarm." Massed Pike formations are slow and deliberate and under tightly controlled command of officers and NCOs. For really large masses of pikes, simply ordering a change of direction can take up to ten or twenty seconds.

3) Harchong's army is simply two or three "wars" behind the times. Against even muzzle-loader equipped armies, Harchong's peasant pike formations would have a better than even chance of victory. They've never faced more modern arms so they supplied the army they had, equipped to "fight the last war."

I don't think that Harchong's primarily dependent on pikes. Traditionally Harchong's decisive arm has been the cavalry armed with horse bows, arbalasts and lancers for shock. Indeed, the Harchongians haven't really fought a major war in a long time, unlike Desnair's unfortunate experience with Siddarmark's pike blocks. Most of their experience has been in dealing with peasant rebellions where the shock of the lancer along with the calvary's use of ranged weapons proved key to surpressing the rebellions.

I'm not saying the Harchong doesn't have pikes; only that the calvary is more important.

I think that one thing we've learned ever sinse Haryl's crossing in Corisande is that you really, really don't want to oppose pikes against even muzzle loading rifles. That is simply a formula for running up the body count. I understand the temptation to match Harchong's peasantry in human wave attacks against allied forces. But that will turn into a way of stacking up bodies regardless of which end of the barrel you are inserting the bullet into. I agree that they may well try it. But they will wish they hadn't if they do.

Don

Harchong's troops have been getting a winterlong Valley Forge boot camp from AoG veterans. Come spring we are going to see a lot of well-trained disciplined riflemen rolling towards the front. The SPOILER snippets showed us how well AoG riflemen can fight even in the worst situations, and if the Host can use its firepower with even half that grit it won't need to human wave. However, given how the CoGA has been operating, any human wave attacks may take on a resemblance to the Pusan Meatgrinder hostages tactic.

n7axw wrote:I don't think that Harchong's primarily dependent on pikes. Traditionally Harchong's decisive arm has been the cavalry armed with horse bows, arbalasts and lancers for shock. Indeed, the Harchongians haven't really fought a major war in a long time, unlike Desnair's unfortunate experience with Siddarmark's pike blocks. Most of their experience has been in dealing with peasant rebellions where the shock of the lancer along with the calvary's use of ranged weapons proved key to surpressing the rebellions.

I'm not saying the Harchong doesn't have pikes; only that the calvary is more important.

The highlighted statement is pretty much my whole point; Harchong is using the same organization and tactics as they used in their last "major war." If they are "adopting" anything, it's the St Klymahn breech loader and appropriate tactics.

n7axw wrote:I think that one thing we've learned ever since Haryl's crossing in Corisande is that you really, really don't want to oppose pikes against even muzzle loading rifles. That is simply a formula for running up the body count.

A "firing line" formation with three ranks of muzzle loading matchlock muskets, is formidable, but would only get two, or maybe three, shots per/rank. Once the pikes close the range, Bayonets -- if the musketeers have them -- are a poor match for pikes.

Haryl's Crossing, IIRC, was an example of why Pikes do not fare well against rifles that have the range to start killing at long ranges (100 yds or longer) as opposed to muskets/matchlocks that are only effective out to 40-50 yards.

I fear that the Great Asshole will putt in place a kamikaze policy. Die for God fighting Shanwey lackeys. (backed or not with threats against their families)

Japanese soldiers were given grenades and bombs to run to the front line so they could "clear" the place for the following COG soldiers.

At that point only headshot (or bombshot) would be good for the alliance soldiers protection.

Weird Harold wrote:

n7axw wrote:I don't think that Harchong's primarily dependent on pikes. Traditionally Harchong's decisive arm has been the cavalry armed with horse bows, arbalasts and lancers for shock. Indeed, the Harchongians haven't really fought a major war in a long time, unlike Desnair's unfortunate experience with Siddarmark's pike blocks. Most of their experience has been in dealing with peasant rebellions where the shock of the lancer along with the calvary's use of ranged weapons proved key to surpressing the rebellions.

I'm not saying the Harchong doesn't have pikes; only that the calvary is more important.

The highlighted statement is pretty much my whole point; Harchong is using the same organization and tactics as they used in their last "major war." If they are "adopting" anything, it's the St Klymahn breech loader and appropriate tactics.

n7axw wrote:I think that one thing we've learned ever since Haryl's crossing in Corisande is that you really, really don't want to oppose pikes against even muzzle loading rifles. That is simply a formula for running up the body count.

A "firing line" formation with three ranks of muzzle loading matchlock muskets, is formidable, but would only get two, or maybe three, shots per/rank. Once the pikes close the range, Bayonets -- if the musketeers have them -- are a poor match for pikes.

Haryl's Crossing, IIRC, was an example of why Pikes do not fare well against rifles that have the range to start killing at long ranges (100 yds or longer) as opposed to muskets/matchlocks that are only effective out to 40-50 yards.

Well, yes. We have been talking rifles all along. The whole presumption is that a wall of pikes gets cut down before it can engage. I don't think anybody is referring to matchlocks. There are still some of those on the church side, rifles are pretty much the order of the day now.

Don

n7axw wrote:Well, yes. We have been talking rifles all along. The whole presumption is that a wall of pikes gets cut down before it can engage. I don't think anybody is referring to matchlocks. There are still some of those on the church side, rifles are pretty much the order of the day now.

Don

But the Harchongese haven't encountered Rifles, let alone modern breech loaders or field artillery. They don't have any frame of reference to judge the changes range and rate-of-fire make to a modern battlefield; they've provided the same king of army they always have in expectation that they will gain the result they always have.

Harchong isn't thinking in terms of a "human wave," but Magwair and other CoGA commanders don't see a better way to use Harchong's cannon fodder army since they don't have enough rifles to make them effective.

Weird Harold wrote:

n7axw wrote:Well, yes. We have been talking rifles all along. The whole presumption is that a wall of pikes gets cut down before it can engage. I don't think anybody is referring to matchlocks. There are still some of those on the church side, rifles are pretty much the order of the day now.

Don

But the Harchongese haven't encountered Rifles, let alone modern breech loaders or field artillery. They don't have any frame of reference to judge the changes range and rate-of-fire make to a modern battlefield; they've provided the same king of army they always have in expectation that they will gain the result they always have.

Harchong isn't thinking in terms of a "human wave," but Magwair and other CoGA commanders don't see a better way to use Harchong's cannon fodder army since they don't have enough rifles to make them effective.

From LAMA, the Mighty Host of God and the Archangels has, during the winter:
1,300,000+ men
77,000 rifles
80,000 pistols
and all the old-fashioned weaponry of the pre-war 400,000 man regular army.

When they got settled in to stay back, train, and get better weapons, they got:
506,000 rifles from other jihadist states and Harchong's own now Church-supervised manufacturers

They're described as being able to put "over six hundred and forty thousand riflemen into the field" for spring campaigning. (Apparently a few other rifles showed up, or occasionally the riflemen share?). 14% of them, about, will be the St. Kylmahn's. (That's about 90,000 with the best rifles in the field on Safehold, and trained to use them.)

The remaining infantry is to consist of about 400,000 armed with arbalests and bows, and 60,000 slingers.

The old regular army is fairly well swamped by the newcomers, both men and officers. Granted, the superannuated senior Harchongese officers are still likely to be around in some spots, but Magwair isn't kidding around with the demand for an effective Mighty Host and they've got a solid cadre of AoG advisers, foreign volunteers, and gentlemen-turned-officers who may not have too much experience, but don't have bad habits to break either.

I don't expect the NCO's, the junior officers, or critical portions of the senior officer corps to have any interest in zerg rushes, or glorious cavalry charges. They don't have the ethos to spread out into a really open order in the field and leave on-the-spot decisions based on a general conception of the current plan and specific local conditions that the ICA has, and the Harchong social matrix isn't one to be a fertile ground for that. So there's that much social reason to keep them from being as modern tactically as their weapons and (especially) their enemies' weapons would encourage.

But if there are going to be any human wave attacks with them, it's going to be not the idea of any of those leaders - or Magwair - but rather what may be forced on people who know better by whatever regular army officers could not be taught better or removed, intendants, and/or the directions of the Grand Fornicator.

For that matter, left to themselves, I'm sure a lot of those serf conscripts have a lot of poaching experience they could put to use as Harchong's scout-snipers. For sneaking, spying, and picking off isolated patrols, even those who don't get a nice new rifles may be able to do very well with an arbalest, a bow, or even a sling. Alas, I doubt many would be left that much to themselves, as much as a clever junior AoG officer would adore that kind of scout, in whatever number he can get, keep, and prevent suspicious Harchong nobles from stringing up on general principles.

>intendant

I can easily imagine some young Inquisitor trying to make a name for himself bullying an army officer into something stupid. "Why aren't you rushing that defensive line?! Are you LACKING IN ZEAL? If your cowardice costs us this battle, we will make an example of you."

The Harchong officers are going to be pinched between Clyntahn and reality.

I could see the Harcnongians doing something dumb, more on the order of Harless at Thesmar writ large.

But it would be due to some senior officer, who like Harless, insisted on learning his lessons the hard way.

Don

Obviously Harchongese losses will be immense (slingers, for example), but what happens when they return home? According to LAMA, 1.3 Million from Harchong alone, + Border States (50K?) That's a lot of bodies piling up, and I don't think I'm alone in assuming that even if Harchong smashes Eastshare, there will be even more troops behind them. In the long run then, how many Harchongese will enough Harchongese die to actually make a difference?

Harchong's army is actually going to be a lot of effective infantry. Their problem will be their utter lack of effective artillery, which will let the Charisians shatter them in droves with mortars and fragmentation shells.