(SPOILER) HFQ Review

n7axw wrote:The illusion about Thirsk being able to stop the Inquisition from claiming Manthyr and his people lives on, I see.

He wasn't even in charge. The agreement to do that was made in the palace and the notion of disobeying Mother Church wouldn't have occured to Rahnyld, Thorast or Duke Fern. Thirsk had lost control of his prisoners long before and wasn't even able to get the intendent to allow adequate food and medicare for them.

Let's lay the responsibility for what happened where it truly belongs: on Zhasphar Clyntahn and the inquisition.

Don

I think both Thirst and Duchairn are good examples of what a lot of us would do when stuck in a crack like that. Both of them believe that the Church must prevail, despite its failings, and both of them know what a juggernaut the Inquisition is. They face the age old dilemna of "do I take a stand and pay for it (and probably not do much good), or do what I can to minimize what's going on?".

In some respects the authority of the CoGA approaches that of an authoritarian regime. I cant recall the term for it, but when a critical mass of popular discontent (in this case awareness of the CoGA corruption) is reached, then only the lack of understanding that everyone else feels the same way is what stops upheaval.

Under those conditions, then someone like Thirsk taking a stand could trigger something. Thirsk's dilemna is paying the price without any knowledge it would do any good.

CRC wrote:A little bit different perspective....

For me the Safehold series has been a love-hate kind of relationship. Probably because of my impatience and wanting to 'find out how it all ends', common in today's instant gratification philosophy, I found myself re-reading the entire series, again, and relishing the excruciating detailed descriptions and actually trying to keep track of people's names.

The Safehold series is actually more detailed and hard to follow than the Honorcverse, IMHO, but I must say, with the proliferation of 'popcorn' sci-fi stories (filling, but not very nutritious) , mainly Amazon sponsored, I find the details both refreshing and intriguing in my re-re-re-read. There are very few of the 'popcorn' sci-fi I read and re-read like the weber books. (And of course there are a few of the Weber books I haven't re-read either Apocalypse Troll, Out of the Dark to name a few.) But I have re-read the Honorverse, Dahak and Safehold books more than any other author's books since EE Doc Smith and the Lensmen series.

A couple of safehold books ago, I would have not given the series a very high rating because of the stretching out of the plot line. Now, I am savoring the latest re-read like a perfectly grilled rack of lamb. I'm up to a Mighty Fortress and this time I am keeping track of names, places, dates and people, and thoroughly enjoying it. In fact, I pick up new nuances and new information each time I read the series.

The bottom line is that its no longer a love-hate relationship with the series itself. The love-hate relationship is now that the series will eventually end, all questions will be answered and all of that anticipation will be over with....

(Although I profoundly hope that Weber, or Tor, does not do a Gerrold "War Against the Chtorr" on us!!!)

Exactly so. Well said.

Don

ericth wrote:

n7axw wrote:The illusion about Thirsk being able to stop the Inquisition from claiming Manthyr and his people lives on, I see.

He wasn't even in charge. The agreement to do that was made in the palace and the notion of disobeying Mother Church wouldn't have occured to Rahnyld, Thorast or Duke Fern. Thirsk had lost control of his prisoners long before and wasn't even able to get the intendent to allow adequate food and medicare for them.

Let's lay the responsibility for what happened where it truly belongs: on Zhasphar Clyntahn and the inquisition.

Don

I think both Thirst and Duchairn are good examples of what a lot of us would do when stuck in a crack like that. Both of them believe that the Church must prevail, despite its failings, and both of them know what a juggernaut the Inquisition is. They face the age old dilemna of "do I take a stand and pay for it (and probably not do much good), or do what I can to minimize what's going on?".

In some respects the authority of the CoGA approaches that of an authoritarian regime. I cant recall the term for it, but when a critical mass of popular discontent (in this case awareness of the CoGA corruption) is reached, then only the lack of understanding that everyone else feels the same way is what stops upheaval.

Under those conditions, then someone like Thirsk taking a stand could trigger something. Thirsk's dilemna is paying the price without any knowledge it would do any good.

Where the situation here differs from a straight up authoritarian regime is the religious vector which goes straight to the core of anyone embracing it. Spiritual tyranny combines with secular authoritarianism is about the most monstrous thing possible.

Don

ericth wrote:

n7axw wrote:The illusion about Thirsk being able to stop the Inquisition from claiming Manthyr and his people lives on, I see.

He wasn't even in charge. The agreement to do that was made in the palace and the notion of disobeying Mother Church wouldn't have occured to Rahnyld, Thorast or Duke Fern. Thirsk had lost control of his prisoners long before and wasn't even able to get the intendent to allow adequate food and medicare for them.

Let's lay the responsibility for what happened where it truly belongs: on Zhasphar Clyntahn and the inquisition.

Don

I think both Thirst and Duchairn are good examples of what a lot of us would do when stuck in a crack like that. Both of them believe that the Church must prevail, despite its failings, and both of them know what a juggernaut the Inquisition is. They face the age old dilemna of "do I take a stand and pay for it (and probably not do much good), or do what I can to minimize what's going on?".

In some respects the authority of the CoGA approaches that of an authoritarian regime. I cant recall the term for it, but when a critical mass of popular discontent (in this case awareness of the CoGA corruption) is reached, then only the lack of understanding that everyone else feels the same way is what stops upheaval.

Under those conditions, then someone like Thirsk taking a stand could trigger something. Thirsk's dilemna is paying the price without any knowledge it would do any good.

I think that what stops Thirsk is not the price he would pay personally, but rather the price everyone he loves or even cares about would pay.

Keith_w wrote:
I think that what stops Thirsk is not the price he would pay personally, but rather the price everyone he loves or even cares about would pay.

I think it goes even further than that. The reality is that had Thirsk been willing to sacrifice himself and his family, he could not have even slowed down what happened to Manthyr and his people

The most he could have achieved was martyrdom in a gesture that would have been utterly futile. One could make a moral argument for Thirsk sacrificing himself that way. But could that same argument be made for him to endanger his daughters and their families?

Don

n7axw wrote:

Keith_w wrote:
I think that what stops Thirsk is not the price he would pay personally, but rather the price everyone he loves or even cares about would pay.

I think it goes even further than that. The reality is that had Thirsk been willing to sacrifice himself and his family, he could not have even slowed down what happened to Manthyr and his people

The most he could have achieved was martyrdom in a gesture that would have been utterly futile. One could make a moral argument for Thirsk sacrificing himself that way. But could that same argument be made for him to endanger his daughters and their families?

Don

That is exactly how I feel about it.

WeberFan wrote:I guess this is from a pre-publication reviewer...

Big time spoiler in the review. I won't put it here, but you can see it for yourself.

[url]https://lizbourke.wordpress.com/2015/07/14/books-in-brief-hells-foundations-quiver-by-david-weber/
[/url]

It's dated back in July, and it was only on a whim that I Googled HFQ to see if there was anything worth browsing.

I hate this type of review. It is like they are writing a consumer report for a stove, when the reviewed object was a refrigerator. "I couldn't get the appliance to warm up leftovers unless I turned the appliance around and tied the food to the coils..."

Someone said that the reviewer wrote science fantasy. Well there are rules for science fantasy. The science has to comply with known science, the fantasy has to be consistent, and human nature stays the same with the exception of the human girl's response to the alien/shapeshifter's instant mating instinct.

Science fiction has rules. The science has to comply with known science. (I don't know how many books I have read where the author has no clue about relative distance in space. i.e. another galaxy.) Human nature must stay the same. (You probably remember where Captain Kirk tells the 20th century girl that no one uses money in the future. Apparently all resource allocation is done by an impartial altruistic computer.)

Alternate history has more rules than most forms of fiction. The science has to comply with known science. The development of science and technology has to comply with logic. While believers in evolution will believe that hundreds of unrelated changes to DNA that have no individual value in survival could all occur roughly simultaneously to result in an eye, the same believer will question any skipping of known technology steps. Half the entries in this forum are about what can or can not be done in the Safehold World.

An unstated alternate history rule is to give the reader some reason to believe any progress could occur. Since the beginning of the Halocene epoch, there have been great civilizations in China, India, the Near East, Egypt, Central and South America, with great public buildings. However, until the Industrial Revolution started in England and the U.S. there was no great increase public wealth or health. Indeed from a statistical point of view, "Conan the Barbarian" is more probably accurate as alternative history than the offerings of David Weber or Eric Flint, or even Mark Twain. You should read "Why Nations Fail:...". It is just chock full of nations that would of, could of, and should of, but didn't.

All of that was to say, that if an author wants to focus primarily on characters and their conflict and development, then any form of fiction except alternative history can be used. An alternative history that does not abide by the rules listed above is fantasy, and should be marketed as such.

James

The reviewer must really have a hate-love-hate relationship going on Her whole 'review' is whingy and whiney and doesn't like the fact that a Sci-Fi book has technical sections which help define the what/when/how and why humanity are in the predicament they currently find themselves. Her own work is quite poor when compared to other fantasy/sci-fi authors so I do not take very much stock in her 'criticism' more I look upon it as sour grapes by someone who is not able to write 2 - 3 novels in a year.

The Go4 have qualities that all dictators require because if they didn't they wouldn't be the current 'leaders' of the CoGA.
I think what people really have to realise is that this is Space Opera very much like Star Wars saga where you have lots happening around a dedicated group of heroes. Being a scientist I could drive a Mac Truck through many of Star Wars' 'science' the same I could say about many books in this genre; instead many scientists find it a challenge to actually to try and make it real and not just confined to the pages of a book or in a film.

Whereas with Safehold and all of RFCs work he takes the time to explain the why it is been done in the way it is.
So what if you don't like the techno-babble or cannot follow it what is critical is that you know the author has taken the time to a) think it through & more importantly make it plausible and 'real' enough for us to believe it.

So let's just sit back and remember if RFC had not begun this journey we would not be able to try and second guess his curve balls or anything else to do with HIS world and HIS story.