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| Re: Black Jack vs The Salamander | |
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by Maldorian
» Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:49 pm
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Maldorian
Posts: 251
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Black Jack against the Salamander?
Black Jack is absolutley a dead man! Black Jack is a good commander, but Honor is an absolut deadly woman! She is a tactical Genius and you know her abilities in close combat with guns, Blades or the blank Hands? Face to face? Rest in peace Black Jack! PS: You are waiting for a new book? What should I say? All new books must be published and in my case, translated in my language, that makes the wait even longer as for you! |
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| Re: Black Jack vs The Salamander | |
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by SharkHunter
» Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:30 am
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SharkHunter
Posts: 1608
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In an even competition? Same level of ships and tech? Likely a draw in space or an orgy of mutual destruction and it depends on whose ship dies first. Now then, on an even "battlefield in space?" where each has the opportunity to put their best deceptive foot forward, setting their forces in the "optimal" traps to engage the other force at a time and space of their choosing?
Edge to Honor, for the simple reason that she, the RMN and GSN and especially her well trained crews have a nasty habit of playing whuppa$$ on much larger and more powerful ships and formations using unorthdox tactics. So I don't think Black Jack's well drilled crews and ships would have seen the iron fists swinging in to smack them upside at the worst possible moments. I'm thinking Tourville vs. the Salamander at the Battle of Sidemore Station. Thoughts? ---------------------
All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all |
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| Re: Black Jack vs The Salamander | |
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by jtg452
» Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:55 am
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jtg452
Posts: 471
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Even playing field- meaning comparable tech? I'll take Honor in that one every time.
Universe tech versus universe tech? I still take Honor every time. She has better stand off capabilities. Geary's tech pretty much requires close in engagements and ships in the Honorverse rarely survive in combat long enough to get to guns range. Black Jack hasn't faced a high quality opponent. Most of his wins against the Syndics were more because he actually used discipline, coordination and tactics than because they were something special. The only really organized opponents he's face are the Enigmas and the bear cows. (I haven't read the latest so I don't know what happens in Leviathan.) One relies too heavily on stealth and deception to want to brawl and the other, while extremely tough, are suicidal and tactics go out the window when things get tough for them. Honor, on the other hand, has faced top flight opponents all through her career going all the way back to First Yeltsin. |
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| Re: Black Jack vs The Salamander | |
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by Crown Loyalist
» Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:11 pm
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Crown Loyalist
Posts: 196
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It would be a one-sided asskicking, with Honor on the winning side.
Geary is a competent commander in a universe of incompetents. Honor is a military genius in a universe of extremely capable and experienced military minds. The one thing Geary has going for him is he might literally be the chosen one of his universe, given the persistent spiritual elements of the series. |
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| Re: Black Jack vs The Salamander | |
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by blackjack217
» Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:49 pm
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blackjack217
Posts: 315
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Gotta disagree with you on a few points here. First, the Syndics did find a few capable CEOs, such as the one in the forth book who Geary explicitly said didn't make a single mistake during the whole battle (He won due to having twice as many ships as she did, as well as having capable subformation commanders). The Bear Cows are also extremely tough and highly capable opponents. Their tactics were designed to fight the enigmas and dancers, something they were so good at that both opponents apparently relied exclusively on blowing up their solar systems rather fight a conventional battle they couldn't win. Thus, the Bear Cow's choice to rely on those tactics to fight a third foe makes sense, the Alliance (and Geary) was simply quicker to adapt their tactics to the new tech matchup. Furthermore while discipline, coordination, and good tactics are key to Geary's success they aren't the whole story. What really elevates Geary from a good tactician to a military mastermind is his terrifying ability to get inside his opponents head to anticipate and counter their next move. Ultimately its an interesting matchup. Honor is an incredibly sneaky tactician with experience facing off with the best of the best and a willingness to throw away the book, while Geary tends to be more straightforward but is still inventive and extraordinarily good at predicting his opponents next move. |
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| Re: Black Jack vs The Salamander | |
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by CRC
» Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:38 am
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CRC
Posts: 131
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Gotta jump in here.
Geary's success revolves around his familiarity and 'feel' of coordinating ship, task force and fleet movements with only light speed information. Honor, on the other hand, has always had FTL information on ship and weapons positions, wedge radiation pre-Ghost Rider, now complete FTL with Ghost Rider. That's two VERY different mindsets and thought processes. Think about it this way. Look at Hubble photo of galaxies millions of light years away. Those photos are of scenes millions of years old. Expand your mental image of our local cluster of galaxies and realize that all visuals you are relying on are obsolete and the further away you visualize, the older and more obsolete your image becomes. Its kind of mind blowing and hard to grasp. So the bottom line is comparing Geary's tactics to Honor's tactics is like comparing apples to mackerel.... |
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| Re: Black Jack vs The Salamander | |
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by Jonathan_S
» Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:21 pm
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Jonathan_S
Posts: 8796
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If both given sufficient time to become quite familiarized then I'd tend to agree. Especially it if was a single ship battle. But drop Honor in as commander of a reasonable sized fleet of Black Jack tech ships without a large amount of familiarization time and I think Black Jack's fleet would take her fleet. She just doesn't have the experience of tightly coordinating formations using pure light-speed sensors; nor fighting with such insanely closed ranged weapons. It takes some particular skills to be truly effective with that particular tech mix. (Something CRC touched on in the previous post) |
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| Re: Black Jack vs The Salamander | |
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by blackjack217
» Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:56 pm
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blackjack217
Posts: 315
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I'd agree with you about a single ship battle, as Black Jack has never shown himself to be a particularly talented captain. When it comes to larger engagements though, I wouldn't say Honor would win every time. Personally, I think her more aggressive tactics would let her usually win a fairly close victory against Black Jack, with him retreating with most of his fleet still intact once the tactical situation turns against him. However every once in a while she'd get too fancy or start relying heavily on deception Black Jack will read her and inflict extremely heavy losses. |
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by n7axw
» Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:03 am
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n7axw
Posts: 5997
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Honor's genius lies in her inability to throw away the book and improvise. Think Ceberus.
Geary can do that too when the occasion calls for it. It's been a while sinse I read Lost Fleet. But consider that first battle against the Enigmas. Both are good at husbanding the resourses available at the moment... making bricks without straw. But I think the edge would go to Honor. If I were surrounded by enemies in a desperate situation and need someone in command to get me out of it alive, I would want Honor in command...or Abby Hearns!  Don When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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| Re: Black Jack vs The Salamander | |
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by Roguevictory
» Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:41 am
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Roguevictory
Posts: 421
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After thinking it over some I think the tech the fleets are using will be a key factor. If they are using a tech base with light speed limit sensors and comm it will be a big advantage for Geary. If they have FTL sensors and comm it will be an edge for Honor but not as big as vice versa IMO. I think Geary will be able to adapt to the more precise data ad control more easily then Honor will be able to adapt to the lightspeed lag.
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