The Zerg Swarm of Harchong

Given that Harchong seems to be adopting the swarm tactic, what will be the political implications when the peasants are mowed down by artillery fire?

TheOneLogician wrote:Given that Harchong seems to be adopting the swarm tactic, what will be the political implications when the peasants are mowed down by artillery fire?

Nothing good I'm sure. I doubt there is a Harchongese opposition faction that could step in, in the event word from the front filters through the Inquisition's safeguards on massive casualties, taking over the government and at least presenting the facade of reform. They have long since struck this deal with the Church - complete support of the Harchongese aristocracy in exchange for complete support of the church's demands and policies. With nowhere (legitimate) to go and with the Church telling the serfs repeatedly that their leaders are doing what God demands of them, public anger and outrage over the huge losses will not likely manifest among the serf, except perhaps in the form of local peasant rebellions that may or may not be suppressed effectively. Where the fecal matter is likely to hit rotary engine is among what little middle class their is in the Empire and among the aristocrats and bureaucrats who will start to see the alliance with Mother Church as being detrimental to their bottom line.

thanatos wrote:

TheOneLogician wrote:Given that Harchong seems to be adopting the swarm tactic, what will be the political implications when the peasants are mowed down by artillery fire?

Nothing good I'm sure. I doubt there is a Harchongese opposition faction that could step in, in the event word from the front filters through the Inquisition's safeguards on massive casualties, taking over the government and at least presenting the facade of reform. They have long since struck this deal with the Church - complete support of the Harchongese aristocracy in exchange for complete support of the church's demands and policies. With nowhere (legitimate) to go and with the Church telling the serfs repeatedly that their leaders are doing what God demands of them, public anger and outrage over the huge losses will not likely manifest among the serf, except perhaps in the form of local peasant rebellions that may or may not be suppressed effectively. Where the fecal matter is likely to hit rotary engine is among what little middle class their is in the Empire and among the aristocrats and bureaucrats who will start to see the alliance with Mother Church as being detrimental to their bottom line.

Possibly, but remember, every culture has a breaking point. The French reached theirs' in 1915, and it's possible that after a few dozen battles, your average Harchong peasant may very well decide that being a Holy Martyr for God and the Archangels isn't the greatest thing ever.

Not the best thing, but better than being tortured to death for desertion.

If the aristocracy is clever they will use the casualties to inflame anger against the servants of Shan-wei who inflicted them with their diabolical weapons.

On the other hand, if regular units are at the front, who's going to suppress the next peasant rebellion? Or the food riots when harvest time comes and necessary workers are deployed, disabled, or dead?

TheOneLogician wrote:Given that Harchong seems to be adopting the swarm tactic, what will be the political implications when the peasants are mowed down by artillery fire?

The church is providing them with training, weapons and leadership, so I don't think that it will simply be a matter of a wave of serfs trying to overwhelm defenses with a carpet of bodies so that those with weapons, the aristocrats, can safely approach for the kill.

Why not? It wouldn't be the first religious dictatorship to choose human wave tactics. They don't have much incentive, aside from whatever morality they possess, to economize on peasant lives.

thanatos wrote:

TheOneLogician wrote:Given that Harchong seems to be adopting the swarm tactic, what will be the political implications when the peasants are mowed down by artillery fire?

Nothing good I'm sure. I doubt there is a Harchongese opposition faction that could step in, in the event word from the front filters through the Inquisition's safeguards on massive casualties, taking over the government and at least presenting the facade of reform. They have long since struck this deal with the Church - complete support of the Harchongese aristocracy in exchange for complete support of the church's demands and policies. With nowhere (legitimate) to go and with the Church telling the serfs repeatedly that their leaders are doing what God demands of them, public anger and outrage over the huge losses will not likely manifest among the serf, except perhaps in the form of local peasant rebellions that may or may not be suppressed effectively. Where the fecal matter is likely to hit rotary engine is among what little middle class their is in the Empire and among the aristocrats and bureaucrats who will start to see the alliance with Mother Church as being detrimental to their bottom line.

Tsarist Russia's 'Second Serfdom' anyone? We know how that worked out for the aristocracy in 1917.

Expert snuggler wrote:Why not? It wouldn't be the first religious dictatorship to choose human wave tactics. They don't have much incentive, aside from whatever morality they possess, to economize on peasant lives.

Because Maguaire and Duchairne have already realized that stupidly zerg rushing into Charisian artillery and rifle fire is a losing proposition and thus have conspired to give the Harchong army actual weapons and useful combat training.

Which has been noted is likely to completely upend the Harchong serf system if any significant numbers of those serfs-turn-trained-soldiers were to go home. But that still requires that they a) go home in significant numbers, and b) only benefits the Charisian Empire and Merlin's Plan if they can defeat said army without completely wiping them out.

TheOneLogician wrote:Given that Harchong seems to be adopting the swarm tactic, ...

I think you're wrong on several points.

1) Harchong is NOT "adopting" a new tactic, massed pikes is a traditional and well-proven pre-gunpowder/early-gunpowder formation. Google "Pike square" for details.

2) Massed Piles are anything but a "swarm." Massed Pike formations are slow and deliberate and under tightly controlled command of officers and NCOs. For really large masses of pikes, simply ordering a change of direction can take up to ten or twenty seconds.

3) Harchong's army is simply two or three "wars" behind the times. Against even muzzle-loader equipped armies, Harchong's peasant pike formations would have a better than even chance of victory. They've never faced more modern arms so they supplied the army they had, equipped to "fight the last war."

Weird Harold wrote:

TheOneLogician wrote:Given that Harchong seems to be adopting the swarm tactic, ...

I think you're wrong on several points.

1) Harchong is NOT "adopting" a new tactic, massed pikes is a traditional and well-proven pre-gunpowder/early-gunpowder formation. Google "Pike square" for details.

2) Massed Piles are anything but a "swarm." Massed Pike formations are slow and deliberate and under tightly controlled command of officers and NCOs. For really large masses of pikes, simply ordering a change of direction can take up to ten or twenty seconds.

3) Harchong's army is simply two or three "wars" behind the times. Against even muzzle-loader equipped armies, Harchong's peasant pike formations would have a better than even chance of victory. They've never faced more modern arms so they supplied the army they had, equipped to "fight the last war."

I don't think that Harchong's primarily dependent on pikes. Traditionally Harchong's decisive arm has been the cavalry armed with horse bows, arbalasts and lancers for shock. Indeed, the Harchongians haven't really fought a major war in a long time, unlike Desnair's unfortunate experience with Siddarmark's pike blocks. Most of their experience has been in dealing with peasant rebellions where the shock of the lancer along with the calvary's use of ranged weapons proved key to surpressing the rebellions.

I'm not saying the Harchong doesn't have pikes; only that the calvary is more important.

I think that one thing we've learned ever sinse Haryl's crossing in Corisande is that you really, really don't want to oppose pikes against even muzzle loading rifles. That is simply a formula for running up the body count. I understand the temptation to match Harchong's peasantry in human wave attacks against allied forces. But that will turn into a way of stacking up bodies regardless of which end of the barrel you are inserting the bullet into. I agree that they may well try it. But they will wish they hadn't if they do.

Don