Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 49 guests

League Survival

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: League Survival
Post by munroburton   » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:44 pm

munroburton
Admiral

Posts: 2375
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:16 am
Location: Scotland

Jonathan_S wrote:Plus we're told that most SDFs have nothing more than LACs and only a handful have even a single squadron of wallers.

Against somebody with nothing heavier than a light cruiser even a poorly maintained SD or two is going to be overwhelming; unless those CLs have a massive tech edge (and are backed by significant missile pods)


Wasn't there a light cruiser somewhere that was once refitted to be an energy-range SD-killer? ;)

Sure, the concept didn't really pan out in practice. But that was because the RMN found it of little utility against a concentrated force of wallers. Against a loner or pair, the concept seems a little more valid.

And even those SDFs who do have a full battle squadron or more would be wary of attacking someone who could probably pull off at least one guaranteed waller kill.
Top
Re: League Survival
Post by SWM   » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:49 pm

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

Theemile wrote:
Rincewind wrote:Having said all that there must be some System Defence Forces that could give the SLN a fight. In Mission of Honor Kolokoltsov refers to a couple of system defence forces whose loyalty might have been less than total if the crisis with Manticore went on. And in A Rising Thunder he refers to Core Worlds being driven to build their own navies up to challenge the SLN. Some of the SDFs are reasonably large; Mike Henke knowing that several of them were as large as if not larger than the Royal Manticoran Navy's wall of battle from before Roger's build up.



A fight yes, but we know that only about a dozen have a 8 or more SDs, and none can have more than a hundred or 2 wallers. For the last 400 years, there has been no real need for any member of the SL to need to protect itself with the umbrella of the SLN protecting the Core.

Manticore's pre-buildup wall is not what you think - it was 11 2.1 Mton BBs (1 was mothballed and needing a refit), 11 3.9 MTon DNs (3 of which were mothballed and needing a refit) and 3 6.5 Mton SDs (all 3 mothballed and needing a refit). A total of 25 ships, 11 of which were obsolete BBs, 7 mothballed and not usable, and the rest undersized for their rate.

The entire pre-buildup wall would not survive an encounter with 1 squadron of 1905 Gryphon SDs.

I believe it was less than that. HoS says that Roger built up the RMN wall of battle from 12 ships to 25 ships by the time he died. It also says that Roger built the RMNs first dreadnought. So before Roger, the RMN wall of battle was 12 battleships. It would not even stand against a single division of SLN superdreadnoughts.

[edit]I misread it. HoS does not say that Roger built the first dreadnought--it says that Roger refused to build anything as small as a battleship. The Ad Astra-class dreadnought goes back to 1632. But it does clearly state that Roger built the wall of battle from 12 ships to 80 ships, which doesn't seem to match the numbers elsewhere in the book.
Last edited by SWM on Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: League Survival
Post by Theemile   » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:01 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5241
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

SWM wrote:
Theemile wrote:

A fight yes, but we know that only about a dozen have a 8 or more SDs, and none can have more than a hundred or 2 wallers. For the last 400 years, there has been no real need for any member of the SL to need to protect itself with the umbrella of the SLN protecting the Core.

Manticore's pre-buildup wall is not what you think - it was 11 2.1 Mton BBs (1 was mothballed and needing a refit), 11 3.9 MTon DNs (3 of which were mothballed and needing a refit) and 3 6.5 Mton SDs (all 3 mothballed and needing a refit). A total of 25 ships, 11 of which were obsolete BBs, 7 mothballed and not usable, and the rest undersized for their rate.

The entire pre-buildup wall would not survive an encounter with 1 squadron of 1905 Gryphon SDs.

I believe it was less than that. HoS says that Roger built up the RMN wall of battle from 12 ships to 25 ships by the time he died. It also says that Roger built the RMNs first dreadnought. So before Roger, the RMN wall of battle was 12 battleships. It would not even stand against a single division of SLN superdreadnoughts.


Can you get a quote on that? Checking HOS, The Ad Astra DNs were built in 1632 and the first of the Manticore SDs were built in 1742. Both classes (after refit) were in use up to the opening shots of the first war. The 11 Thorston BBs predated the Ad Astras and were replaced by the Royal Winton DNs at the beginning of the buildup. The Samothrac SDs, originally intended to replace the Manticore SDs, augmented them instead until 1905 when the Manticore SD-01 was retired.

Janacheck's rebuttal to Roger Winton's call for a capital buildup in HoS lists the Thorstons and Ad Astras, but didn't mention the Manticore SDs. We called David on that and he replied that they were in Mothballs thus not counted. (and that they slipped his mind.)
Last edited by Theemile on Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: League Survival
Post by SWM   » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:14 pm

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

Theemile wrote:Check HOS, The Ad Astra DNs were built in 1632 and the first of the Manticore SDs were built in 1742. Both classes (after refit) were in use up to the opening shots of the first war. The 11 Thorston BBs predated the Ad Astras. Janacheck's rebuttal to Roger Winton's call for a capital buildup lists the Thorstons and Ad astras, but didn't mention the Manticor SDs. We called David on that and he replied that they were in Mothballs thus not counted.

Yes, I was editing my post when you responded. :)

But it is confusing because HoS also says, "Despite opposition from some members of the aristocracy, King Roger's buildup increased the RMN from a mere twelve ships of the wall at the time of his coronation to nearly eighty ships of the wall by his death." And later it says, "The expansion driven by Roger's foresight lasted four decades, despite his own tragic, early death. The Navy's wall of battle grew from a mere three squadrons at the time of his coronation in 1857 to over eighty ships by the time of his death, thirty years later."
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: League Survival
Post by Sigs   » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:38 pm

Sigs
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1485
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:09 pm

Jonathan_S wrote:Well the RF is going to be a dozen or so (presumably well dispersed) new nations, each with an existing more powerful than average SDF. So each of those have a good head start on attracting not only neighbors but also remnants of the SLN navy.

Sure they likely won't be able to deploy battle squadrons in each system. But even the threat of the battle squadrons showing up to free or avenge any systems taken or raided is a heck of a lot better than most post-League systems will be able to offer in the next several years.


Plus I assume that part of the plan for those big super-stealthy LennyDets was to allow the MAlign to arrange unfortunate accidents for any system that was too successful at beginning to attract neighbors the MAlign would prefer aligning with one RF system or another. "Ah you attracted 2 squadrons of Vega class SDs. Too bad they suffered a mischief the first time they deployed out of system" If your navy's lost you're not likely to keep your allies; not in the short term chaos following the fall of the League.



What do you think happens when all those unexplained "disappearances" come to the attention of the GA? My first thought would be someone doesn't want you to be independent, so their SD's might make a showing to help them. If everyone but a few entities is receiving a crippling blow to their combat power by mysterious forces, don't you think someone is bound to ask why that is?
Top
Re: League Survival
Post by Sigs   » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:43 pm

Sigs
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1485
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:09 pm

Weird Harold wrote:
Sigs wrote:Where would all the SLN personnel go to? What about their surviving ships?


Themiles signature:
**************
Duckk wrote:Since the idea of using the SLN ships has come and gone for several years now, I thought I'd solicit David's comments on this topic:
<snip>
As far as weapons platforms go, they’re pretty useless
**************


Emphasis mine

Surviving SLN ship will suffer from the same deficiencies as Byng, Crandall and Filarets's survivors-- they'll be pretty useless.


And the assumption is that the RF does NOT have anything dramatically better because then someone is bound to ask the simple question why a dozen League member systems managed to build ships significantly better than the SLN. So if the RF ships are on par with the SLN ships or slightly superior then the deficiencies that the SLN ships suffer are irrelevant, if the RF ships are equal to Haven or worse Manticore, people are bound to ask why? This will put them on the GA's radar really quickly.
Top
Re: League Survival
Post by kzt   » Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:09 pm

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11360
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

"Unlike the SLN, we have not been asleep for the last 15 years. We believed what our observers said, that's why we sent them."
Top
Re: League Survival
Post by SWM   » Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:30 pm

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

Sigs, it would be helpful if you explained what exactly you are trying to argue about. You started out arguing about what the Alignment's plans were. Since the Grand Alliance did not figure in those plans, any discussion about how the GA will react is irrelevant to the discussion of the Alignment plans. So, are we supposed to talk about what the Alignment was actually planning, or about what will happen now that those plans are trashed? If the former, please stop bringing the GA into the argument.
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: League Survival
Post by SWM   » Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:34 pm

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

Sigs wrote:What do you think happens when all those unexplained "disappearances" come to the attention of the GA? My first thought would be someone doesn't want you to be independent, so their SD's might make a showing to help them. If everyone but a few entities is receiving a crippling blow to their combat power by mysterious forces, don't you think someone is bound to ask why that is?

You keep repeating this, but we've already answered you. We've already suggested that the Alignment would not be stupid enough to cause unexplained disappearances only among the non-RF systems. It would be a simple matter to arrange apparent disappearances among the RF worlds, as well.
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: League Survival
Post by Sigs   » Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:37 pm

Sigs
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1485
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:09 pm

kzt wrote:"Unlike the SLN, we have not been asleep for the last 15 years. We believed what our observers said, that's why we sent them."

So you think if one or more League Members left the league with a fleet of similar warships that would be an answer that would work?

If they build them in the open, someone(Beowulf) would have noticed, if they build them in secret someone(Manticore) will likely ask the question of why in secret?

And then it begs the question of how the rest of the core worlds will react this newly demonstrated ability?

The RF member systems as a whole are supposedly not in on the conspiracy except for a few people up high in the chain of command(both military and civilian), having significantly better military tech than the SLN would have leaked out unless it was in a secret fleet which brings us back to the question of why do you have a secret fleet?
Top

Return to Honorverse