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Charisian Imperial Parliament

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: Charisian Imperial Parliament
Post by hanuman   » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:28 pm

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lyonheart wrote:Hi Hanuman,

I'm curious to know the basis for your figure that the EoC [empire of Charis] has 20% of Safehold's population, if you can cite them.

That was also my impression, but RFC has since provided quite different and more detailed figures in a post entitled "Raw Meat for the Speculators" almost 3 and a half years ago on April 15, 2012; about three monthes before MTaT.

There's quite a bit of information on four subject areas, that you should read on your own, all very useful among many other RFC posts that illuminate the series' background.

Somebody should come up with a recommended searchable list of RFC's posts for Safehold, to help newbies.

Kinda like the FAQ. ;)

Although a list within FAQ in a recommended reading order tied to the respective books might be helpful for the forum administrators to consider making in their copious free time. :D

Contrary to the previous textev in the first four books, Chisholm and Corisande both have populations of 15 million, while Charis has only 14, Tarot 11, Emerald 9 and Zebediah 8, for a combined 72 million out of a total Safehold population of just over a billion, with the RoS [Republic of Siddarmark] having a population of 129.5 million, which combined mean the allies might have 20% of Safehold's population if all of the RoS's were firmly opposed to to the Go4, which they certainly aren't by a darn sight, so the allies might more realistically be in the 16-18% range, if that helps emphasize the straits our heroes find themselves in.

Please enjoy HFaF, MTaT, LaMA, in the now less
than 5 weeks to HFQ.

I envy you.

But then you'll be desperately waiting for your next fix just like the rest of us. :D

L




I figured according to something I read in OAR, that Haven and Howard between them contained 80% of Safehold's population. Since Imperial Charis now includes virtually every non-mainland realm (with the exception of marginal areas such as Ravensland and Trellheim), it seemed like a reasonable assumption that the vast majority of the remaining 20% are now Charisian subjects.
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Re: Charisian Imperial Parliament
Post by n7axw   » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:02 am

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hanuman wrote:
I figured according to something I read in OAR, that Haven and Howard between them contained 80% of Safehold's population. Since Imperial Charis now includes virtually every non-mainland realm (with the exception of marginal areas such as Ravensland and Trellheim), it seemed like a reasonable assumption that the vast majority of the remaining 20% are now Charisian subjects.


Well, the population of Safehold is roughly 1 billion.

For the EOC to have 20%, its population would have to be 200 million. The tally from the "red meat for the speculators post" by RFC is 72 million.

So...it would seem we have a bit of a discrepancy here...

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Charisian Imperial Parliament
Post by McGuiness   » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:43 am

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n7axw wrote:
hanuman wrote:
I figured according to something I read in OAR, that Haven and Howard between them contained 80% of Safehold's population. Since Imperial Charis now includes virtually every non-mainland realm (with the exception of marginal areas such as Ravensland and Trellheim), it seemed like a reasonable assumption that the vast majority of the remaining 20% are now Charisian subjects.
Well, the population of Safehold is roughly 1 billion.

For the EOC to have 20%, its population would have to be 200 million. The tally from the "red meat for the speculators post" by RFC is 72 million.

So...it would seem we have a bit of a discrepancy here...

Don
From OAR: "Haven and Howard were the principal landmasses of Safehold, and Langhorne and his fellow archangels had planted humanity far more thickly across them than anywhere else. Even today, eight, or possibly even as many as nine, out of every ten inhabitants of Safehold were to be found there, so it was little wonder Mother Church's attention was so fully fixed there as well."

So RFC initially stated that the islands might contain as little as 10% of the planetary population, although once he fine tuned the numbers he settled on just over 7%. There's been quite a lot of conversation on that discrepancy over the years, although once Himself gave us the numbers, there wasn't much to argue about other than a rounding error!

And yes, the pre-SOS allied populations were just over 200 million, or 20% of the population of Safehold. Millions have died in Siddarmark, although not nearly as many as we think - RFC isn't saying how many but it isn't the tens of millions we feared it was after the first winter. A large percentage of the population in the occupied and rebellious provinces are TLs who will likely head west to the Border States with the all those lovely refugees of Mother Church who don't want to be around when BGV and his allied Siddarmarkan brigades arrive.

The northwestern provinces of Tarikah, Westmarch, and even Icewind (whose reformist inhabitants were evacuated by the ICN) may be largely uninhabited when the war ends. Tens of thousands of reformists will have died in the concentration camps and while slaving to rebuild the canals. (Good luck convincing Siddarmarkan troops to take prisoners after they encounter their first concentration camp!) :evil:

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
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Re: Charisian Imperial Parliament
Post by JeffEngel   » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:17 am

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McGuiness wrote:And yes, the pre-SOS allied populations were just over 200 million, or 20% of the population of Safehold. Millions have died in Siddarmark, although not nearly as many as we think - RFC isn't saying how many but it isn't the tens of millions we feared it was after the first winter. A large percentage of the population in the occupied and rebellious provinces are TLs who will likely head west to the Border States with the all those lovely refugees of Mother Church who don't want to be around when BGV and his allied Siddarmarkan brigades arrive.
It's probably a lot more complicated than that. Refugees, by definition, don't have great choices about where they're going. In a war zone, just about the highest priority is getting out of the war zone. Getting out of it in the direction of a place governed by the people you identify with would be great, but not many are going to have that freedom. So you've got plenty Temple Loyalist or ambivalent Reformists fleeing into government-loyal areas because that's where they can flee, and vice versa.

And once they're there, loyalties and beliefs can change. Some ambivalent Reformists in Siddar City may get a taste of how hated Mother Church is there and recoil, while plenty others will assimilate those attitudes. Anyone heading east whose loyalty to the Church doesn't exceed that to their fellow human beings who sees one of the Inquisition's camps is likely to turn quiet and angry Reformist at least, or guerrilla warrior if they can. But anyone out there who is then put back into the custody of Siddarmark regulars is subject to being regarded as just one more murdering Clyntahn loyalist and strung up.
The northwestern provinces of Tarikah, Westmarch, and even Icewind (whose reformist inhabitants were evacuated by the ICN) may be largely uninhabited when the war ends. Tens of thousands of reformists will have died in the concentration camps and while slaving to rebuild the canals. (Good luck convincing Siddarmarkan troops to take prisoners after they encounter their first concentration camp!) :evil:

Yeah, Siddarmark's in for years of atrocities and counter-atrocities. There's quite a lot of guilt to go around, so there's some comfort to be taken in knowing that genuinely guilty people are going to get caught up in the killing festivals. But they're certainly not going to be alone that way, and the death isn't going to be apportioned all that well to degree of guilt.

I'll save my cheering for whoever's doing the work of ending that.
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Re: Charisian Imperial Parliament
Post by n7axw   » Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:04 pm

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I wonder how many TLs who refugee out of places like Mithold, Shiloh and West March will be back when it's all over. I can visualise a lot of them resettling in more hospitable places rather than coming back to face the music in Siddarmark.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Charisian Imperial Parliament
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:40 pm

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n7axw wrote:I wonder how many TLs who refugee out of places like Mithold, Shiloh and West March will be back when it's all over. I can visualise a lot of them resettling in more hospitable places rather than coming back to face the music in Siddarmark.

Don


Yeah, few future residents of the currently loyal lands will be TEs. The North and West provinces might well be a different story. Those ares will be retaken by ICA troops. More civilians will risk staying. Green Valley will have taken some of those territories before those present can evacuate. The resultant lack of atrocities will encourage TEs to stay.
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Re: Charisian Imperial Parliament
Post by JeffEngel   » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:59 pm

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n7axw wrote:I wonder how many TLs who refugee out of places like Mithold, Shiloh and West March will be back when it's all over. I can visualise a lot of them resettling in more hospitable places rather than coming back to face the music in Siddarmark.

Don

Yeah. I hope they do: it's bad enough to have that much bad blood with people across a border - it's much, much worse when they are next door. Likewise, Reformists in western Siddarmark at least and quite possibly Border States and northern Desnair may be well advised to move east or north.

Alternatively, Charis is meant by the Ahrmahks to be a safe haven. It'd be ironic and even heartwarming if it became that for Siddarmark's Temple Loyalists after this war. (Providing, of course and always, that they're civil Temple Loyalists, not Rakurai-to-be.)
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Re: Charisian Imperial Parliament
Post by n7axw   » Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:54 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:
n7axw wrote:I wonder how many TLs who refugee out of places like Mithold, Shiloh and West March will be back when it's all over. I can visualise a lot of them resettling in more hospitable places rather than coming back to face the music in Siddarmark.

Don

Yeah. I hope they do: it's bad enough to have that much bad blood with people across a border - it's much, much worse when they are next door. Likewise, Reformists in western Siddarmark at least and quite possibly Border States and northern Desnair may be well advised to move east or north.

Alternatively, Charis is meant by the Ahrmahks to be a safe haven. It'd be ironic and even heartwarming if it became that for Siddarmark's Temple Loyalists after this war. (Providing, of course and always, that they're civil Temple Loyalists, not Rakurai-to-be.)


Perhaps the EOC could annex Armaggedon Reef... They'd be safe there. Who knows, they might even get used to it! :twisted:

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Charisian Imperial Parliament
Post by Isilith   » Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:34 am

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n7axw wrote:
Perhaps the EOC could annex Armaggedon Reef... They'd be safe there. Who knows, they might even get used to it! :twisted:

Don


I am already on record as saying that Armageddon Reef is well within the sphere of Charis, and should be annexed and settled as soon as possible.
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Re: Charisian Imperial Parliament
Post by SWM   » Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:29 am

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Isilith wrote:
n7axw wrote:
Perhaps the EOC could annex Armaggedon Reef... They'd be safe there. Who knows, they might even get used to it! :twisted:

Don


I am already on record as saying that Armageddon Reef is well within the sphere of Charis, and should be annexed and settled as soon as possible.

Except no one is willing to live there. That will probably continue to be the case until the Truth is revealed.
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