What if Schueler and Langhorn were mind-altered by Bedard?

OJsDad wrote:Looking at OAR, page 161, Merlin states that the Book of Chihiro was added after the death of Langhorne. He also stated earlier that Chihiro was a staffer of Langhornes and had created the Holy Writ.

I would think that if Chihiro was an Archangel before Langhornes death, he would of had a book in the Holy Writ before.

Yes. The book of Chihiro was written after Langhorne's death. IIRC, it records the story of the War of the Fallen.

Chihiro was one of Langhorne's subordinates as were all of the Archangels. Shan-wei is listed as one of Langhorne's assistants. If you have that reference of Chihiro being a "staffer" handy, I'd like to see it.

I still think you are speculating against the textev. In that section you are referring to in OAR, Chihiro is referred to as an Archangel. I see no evidence at all anywhere that his status was ever less than that...

Don

As I said, pg 161 in OAR. The books at home and I'm on the road now.

The thing is, there is no indication that Chihiro is an archangel prior to the death of Langhorne. Also, it's my understanding that all of the archangels had a book in the Writ from the beginning. It's very specific that from the text that the Book of Chihiro was added afterwards.

OJsDad wrote:As I said, pg 161 in OAR. The books at home and I'm on the road now.

The thing is, there is no indication that Chihiro is an archangel prior to the death of Langhorne. Also, it's my understanding that all of the archangels had a book in the Writ from the beginning. It's very specific that from the text that the Book of Chihiro was added afterwards.

No, I don't think that all the Archangels had books in the original Writ. I am fairly certain there were a lot more Archangels than there were books in the Writ.

SWM wrote:No, I don't think that all the Archangels had books in the original Writ. I am fairly certain there were a lot more Archangels than there were books in the Writ.

In OAR pg 158. First and second full paragraphs.

..glanced once more at the table of contents (in the Writ). The Book of Langhorne, The Book of Bedard, The Book of Pasquale, the books of Sondheim, Truescott, Schueler, Jwo-jeng, Chihiro, Andropov, Hastings.

The list went on and on, each book attributed to one of the "archangels"

Merlin then goes on to talk about what some of the books are about, until page 161. In the first full paragraph.

But the most fascinating - and infuriating - of all, in many ways, was The Book of Chihiro. The book which had been added later, after the close of the original copy of the Writ which had been stored in the computers in Nimues' cave

The next paragraph goes one to say that it appears that Pei's nuke took out a sizable chunk of Langhorns lower level staff doe to the lack of angelic visits, as recorded in the Testimonies, after the attack.

I don't know if we'll ever know who the angel was that was at the beginning of OAR, but I've always that it was Chihiro.

OJsDad wrote:

SWM wrote:No, I don't think that all the Archangels had books in the original Writ. I am fairly certain there were a lot more Archangels than there were books in the Writ.

In OAR pg 158. First and second full paragraphs.

..glanced once more at the table of contents (in the Writ). The Book of Langhorne, The Book of Bedard, The Book of Pasquale, the books of Sondheim, Truescott, Schueler, Jwo-jeng, Chihiro, Andropov, Hastings.

The list went on and on, each book attributed to one of the "archangels"

Merlin then goes on to talk about what some of the books are about, until page 161. In the first full paragraph.

But the most fascinating - and infuriating - of all, in many ways, was The Book of Chihiro. The book which had been added later, after the close of the original copy of the Writ which had been stored in the computers in Nimues' cave

The next paragraph goes one to say that it appears that Pei's nuke took out a sizable chunk of Langhorns lower level staff doe to the lack of angelic visits, as recorded in the Testimonies, after the attack.

I don't know if we'll ever know who the angel was that was at the beginning of OAR, but I've always that it was Chihiro.

I'm not sure what your point is, or more specifically, what this has to do with what I said. None of this contradicts what I said. I am fairly certain that there were more Archangels than there were books in the original Writ.

There were many thousands of people on the mission crew. All of them were Angels or Archangels. How many of them were Archangels? I think there were over a hundred, perhaps several hundred. That is far more Archangels than there were books in the Writ.

What has led you to believe there were that many archangels.

OJsDad wrote:What has led you to believe there were that many archangels.

Simple numbers. There were number of ships, lots of crewpeople, numerous departments, and a large hierarchy. I believe that everyone above a certain level in the hierarchy was an Archangel. There were a lot of crewmembers; they were all Angels. There must have been a lot of Archangels overseeing them.

The Archangels were not restricted to just Langhorne's inner circle. Shan-Wei was an Archangel. She was certainly not a friend of Langhorne--she was named an Archangel because she was a leader among the crew. And there was no Book of Shan-Wei, not even in the original Writ. So we have proof that not every Archangel had a book named after them.

SWM wrote:

OJsDad wrote:What has led you to believe there were that many archangels.

Simple numbers. There were number of ships, lots of crewpeople, numerous departments, and a large hierarchy. I believe that everyone above a certain level in the hierarchy was an Archangel. There were a lot of crewmembers; they were all Angels. There must have been a lot of Archangels overseeing them.

The Archangels were not restricted to just Langhorne's inner circle. Shan-Wei was an Archangel. She was certainly not a friend of Langhorne--she was named an Archangel because she was a leader among the crew. And there was no Book of Shan-Wei, not even in the original Writ. So we have proof that not every Archangel had a book named after them.

There is, AFAIR, no textev that the Adams and Eves even knew that Shan-wei even existed until after the events leading up to the war against the fallen. IMHO, she was announced as an Archangel after that to fulfill the role of Lucifer on Safehold and to explain Langhorne's death and the WATF. I think that only people who had books named after them would have been Archangels and only those who visited the Adams and Eves would have been angels prior to that. The rest would not even have been mentioned to the colonists, unless Langhorne wanted to include cherubim and seraphim.

Keith_w wrote:

SWM wrote:Simple numbers. There were number of ships, lots of crewpeople, numerous departments, and a large hierarchy. I believe that everyone above a certain level in the hierarchy was an Archangel. There were a lot of crewmembers; they were all Angels. There must have been a lot of Archangels overseeing them.

The Archangels were not restricted to just Langhorne's inner circle. Shan-Wei was an Archangel. She was certainly not a friend of Langhorne--she was named an Archangel because she was a leader among the crew. And there was no Book of Shan-Wei, not even in the original Writ. So we have proof that not every Archangel had a book named after them.

There is, AFAIR, no textev that the Adams and Eves even knew that Shan-wei even existed until after the events leading up to the war against the fallen. IMHO, she was announced as an Archangel after that to fulfill the role of Lucifer on Safehold and to explain Langhorne's death and the WATF. I think that only people who had books named after them would have been Archangels and only those who visited the Adams and Eves would have been angels prior to that. The rest would not even have been mentioned to the colonists, unless Langhorne wanted to include cherubim and seraphim.

I'm sure at least some people knew about Shan-Wei before the Rakurai. Alexandria was a publicly known enclave. Angels and Archangels visited the enclaves all the time. They were known to the people, and many of their names were known. There were seven decades of development on Safehold between the Day of Creation and the day the Rakurai struck Alexandria. Three generations of people were guided by the Angels and Archangels. Not all of them were well-known to the people, but I would be surprised if someone as prominent as Shan-Wei was not known to at least some people outside of Alexandria.