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Spoken Languages In The Honorverse ...

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Re: Spoken Languages In The Honorverse ...
Post by hanuman   » Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:34 am

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John Prigent wrote:I'd think it fairly obvious that the Honorverse uses English as a common language because RFC is writing in English. If he was French, German, Japanese or what-have-you then he'd be writing in that language - unless he chose to write in English for the simple reason that more people who are likely to read books for pleasure have English as a first or second language than any other language. Leave aside as irrelevant the question of how many speakers there are in any language, what counts are the numbers of potential readers for the story.

But it's equally certain that drift has occurred, and that other languages are in use. I await the passage when RFC has one of his characters experiencing what happened to me in an African country with probably dozens of closely-related tribal dialects plus English and Swahili as the official languages used in schools, commerce and government. The great joke enjoyed by the locals is to chatter at foreigners in Swahili (but they all love it when anyone tries to learn that language). So my wife and I were on safari and went back to the hotel after a morning's drive in the game park. We sat down in the bar for drinks, and a waiter came to us and asked in Swahili what we'd like, and had we had a good morning in the park. Without thinking abut it I answered in Swahili (yes, I knew a fair bit of the language in those days). He started to go off to get our drinks - and then came back looking stunned to check that I'd actually done that, he hadn't imagined it. His jaw actually dropped in astonishment, the first time I'd ever know that to really happen. (Oh, and we got marvellous service for the rest of the time we stayed there because all the waiters wanted to talk to me.) Contrast that with an American sitting in a different hotel bar where my wife was waiting for me to get back from a meeting. Yes, all the staff spoke good English. But he behaved as he would have at home in whichever part of the US was home, snapping his fingers and calling 'Boy' for service. Not a good idea, it was seen as insulting and he never got served at all. So it's not just a matter of having a common language, one also needs to be seen as polite according to local ideas; I think that might be a bigger stumbling block for mutual understanding.
Cheers
John


Here in South Africa the scenario you just described is tragically very commonplace. The impact of colonialism, European ideas on race and culture and institutionalized racism had deprived indigenous languages of status - I speak IsiXhosa quite well, but almost every time I address a black person in that language, they will insist on responding in either Afrikaans or English, which are the status-rich languages of the region. It's a travesty, because like all languages, the indigenous languages are incredibly beautiful and expressive, as well ass the vehicles of a huge reservoir of indigenous knowledge and wisdom.
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Re: Spoken Languages In The Honorverse ...
Post by wyrm   » Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:12 pm

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hanuman wrote:Here in South Africa the scenario you just described is tragically very commonplace. The impact of colonialism, European ideas on race and culture and institutionalized racism had deprived indigenous languages of status - I speak IsiXhosa quite well, but almost every time I address a black person in that language, they will insist on responding in either Afrikaans or English, which are the status-rich languages of the region. It's a travesty, because like all languages, the indigenous languages are incredibly beautiful and expressive, as well ass the vehicles of a huge reservoir of indigenous knowledge and wisdom.


I don't think this is a 'colonial' effect. From the age of six, my parents use to send me to visit a German family we knew, with the hope that I would pick up some German.

So what happened? This young boy wanders down to the village, Deutschmarks in hand, intending to buy some sugar-based product.

I get half a sentence of German out, or (if I am lucky) a whole sentence. And then ... the inevitable happens. "Ah Englisch! I speak Englisch." And, from that moment on, they will only speak their (broken) Englisch to me.

It is not an issue of language 'status'. It is a matter of language 'utility'. The non-English speaker gains valuable benefits through improving their English.

Even if they aren't using it with an English-speaker, English has value. Aventis (the result of a German-French merger) and Iveco (the result of a German-French-Italian merger) use English as their official language, to avoid having a winner or a loser. Lufthansa and Lenovo made corporate decisions to use English at all levels, even up to board level, despite the vast majority of their staff not being native speakers. In India, a Tamil is more likely to speak to a Goan in English than in any other language. I suspect that a Tswana-speaker and a Xhosa-speaker are more likely to communicate in English or Afrikaans than in either of their languages. What is your experience?
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Re: Spoken Languages In The Honorverse ...
Post by Relax   » Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:10 pm

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hanuman wrote:It's a travesty, because like all languages, the indigenous languages are incredibly beautiful and expressive, as well ass the vehicles of a huge reservoir of indigenous knowledge and wisdom.


Sorry, you hit one of my pet peeves. So, in advance, nothing against you...

While a language has certain words that simply do not translate and definitely do contain many aspects of their indigenous culture, speaking as if a language is "beautiful and expressive" over any other language, is complete emotional (pejorative, adjective). They all are, "beautiful and expressive" in different ways. Language is nothing more than a means of communication. Ear of the beholder. Add that everyone thinks "their" language is beautiful(egocentric). After all, "they" are important after all!

Add in that most think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence and a foreign exotic tongue now becomes "beautiful and romantic." IE it is an ideal of greener pastures.

The French have been peddling this Baloney for a couple hundred years to help increase and continue their influence in this world and others have picked up this PR campaign in consideration of other languages. Now it has translated to every "native" language of some bush people has been applied with this romantic notion that the primitive human, is somehow noble, and their language shows this "nobility." Completely ignoring the simple fact that not a single one of these "noble" bush people want to remain, in the stone age. Or the blatant fact, we all came from the same place.

It is inverted reverse racism. Instead of denigrating their culture and excluding them, it has now become vogue to elevate these primitive societies as somehow superior completely ignoring the fact that there is no rule of law other than might makes right. Also ignoring that every single one of these "noble" primitive societies is at odds/war with their neighbors who speak a different dialect/language that is also "noble".

I could care less if I am speaking English, Spanish, or attempting Tagalog. Sure, my ear hurts listening to the nasal languages of Vietnamese, Mandarin, and Cantonese as they grate on my ears, but to those who speak those languages it sounds just fine to them and "right", while Germanic languages are guttural grating.

It is communication.
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Re: Spoken Languages In The Honorverse ...
Post by JohnRoth   » Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:41 am

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Relax wrote:
hanuman wrote:It's a travesty, because like all languages, the indigenous languages are incredibly beautiful and expressive, as well ass the vehicles of a huge reservoir of indigenous knowledge and wisdom.


Sorry, you hit one of my pet peeves. So, in advance, nothing against you...

While a language has certain words that simply do not translate and definitely do contain many aspects of their indigenous culture, speaking as if a language is "beautiful and expressive" over any other language, is complete emotional (pejorative, adjective). They all are, "beautiful and expressive" in different ways. Language is nothing more than a means of communication. Ear of the beholder. Add that everyone thinks "their" language is beautiful(egocentric). After all, "they" are important after all!

Add in that most think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence and a foreign exotic tongue now becomes "beautiful and romantic." IE it is an ideal of greener pastures.

The French have been peddling this Baloney for a couple hundred years to help increase and continue their influence in this world and others have picked up this PR campaign in consideration of other languages. Now it has translated to every "native" language of some bush people has been applied with this romantic notion that the primitive human, is somehow noble, and their language shows this "nobility." Completely ignoring the simple fact that not a single one of these "noble" bush people want to remain, in the stone age. Or the blatant fact, we all came from the same place.

It is inverted reverse racism. Instead of denigrating their culture and excluding them, it has now become vogue to elevate these primitive societies as somehow superior completely ignoring the fact that there is no rule of law other than might makes right. Also ignoring that every single one of these "noble" primitive societies is at odds/war with their neighbors who speak a different dialect/language that is also "noble".

I could care less if I am speaking English, Spanish, or attempting Tagalog. Sure, my ear hurts listening to the nasal languages of Vietnamese, Mandarin, and Cantonese as they grate on my ears, but to those who speak those languages it sounds just fine to them and "right", while Germanic languages are guttural grating.

It is communication.


Amusingly, this same issue came up on a professional linguist's blog (Language Hat) yesterday. I'm going to reproduce my comment here:

On Language Hat I wrote:If the people involved are not interested in saving their language, the matter is, strictly speaking, of academic interest. This isn’t a diss – I’m using the term academic in its meaning of “only of interest to people in the academy.” Trying to spin it as something of vast cultural importance isn’t going to fly with the people responsible for allocating increasingly scarce funds.

Cultural assimilation, whether accomplished by force or by less unpleasant means, is a fact of history and cultural interaction.
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Re: Spoken Languages In The Honorverse ...
Post by Relax   » Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:52 am

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Yup, last I checked, even though millions throughout the Mediterranean spoke Latin, no one does today. I am sure many thought it a "beautiful" language.
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Re: Spoken Languages In The Honorverse ...
Post by Rincewind   » Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:28 pm

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You think you've got problems with language drift?

Angelina Jolie caused a bit of a stir when she used the phrase 'Aye up me duck' at an awards ceremony. That phrase is actually a Midlands accent spoken around Derby & south of there. I live near Buxton which is in the northern part of THE SAME COUNTY & we speak with a completely different dialect; (for example using 'love' instead of duck). If we can get this great a drift WITHIN ONE COUNTY think what problems we would have across different planets.
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Re: Spoken Languages In The Honorverse ...
Post by Tenshinai   » Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:46 pm

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Relax wrote:While a language has certain words that simply do not translate and definitely do contain many aspects of their indigenous culture, speaking as if a language is "beautiful and expressive" over any other language, is complete emotional (pejorative, adjective). They all are, "beautiful and expressive" in different ways. Language is nothing more than a means of communication. Ear of the beholder. Add that everyone thinks "their" language is beautiful(egocentric). After all, "they" are important after all!


Rubbish. Talk to a linguist, 9 out of 10 will tell you that there are severe differences in how various languages "feel".

Seriously, there is a world of a difference between how languages works, and yes some languages can definitely be described as "beautiful" while others are quite the opposite, just as some languages can be described as very expressive, while others are not.

Some languages simply lack some words or concepts, others add something extra.

One obvious example is in my own language, there´s "lagom", which in English, well you just don´t have a perfect or direct translation, the closest i can get is "just enough", but that only covers basic meaning.

There are huge variations between languages how you can use words and how the grammar is built up, for another example from my own, because of how there´s essentially no limit to how you can piece words together, you can in theory come up with perfectly proper words of any length of letters:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_words#Swedish
However, Swedish grammar makes it possible to create arbitrarily long words. One such word is Spårvagnsaktiebolagsskensmutsskjutarefackföreningspersonalbeklädnadsmagasinsförrådsförvaltarens (95 letters) which means: "[belonging to] The manager of the depot for the supply of uniforms to the personnel of the track cleaners' union of the tramway company".

And that´s before even starting to look at how some languages vary in other ways, like how inflection or pronounciation sometimes matters, and sometimes not, like how tonal changes are vital in Chinese.

All this combines, and in the end, some languages can use a single word to get across complex meanings that takes sentences in other, but at the same time can be terrible at describing something...

Relax wrote:Add in that most think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence and a foreign exotic tongue now becomes "beautiful and romantic." IE it is an ideal of greener pastures.


:roll:

If you can´t hear or see the difference between languages, well more the pity for you.
Or maybe you´re just monolingual and unable to learn any other, again, more the pity for you.


Relax wrote:Or the blatant fact, we all came from the same place.


:lol:

Yeah because the intervening tens of thousands of years of separated development makes absolutely no difference what so ever.

Doesn´t it even interest you the slightest, the chance to look at WHY and HOW different languages developed so differently and widely?

Relax wrote:Also ignoring that every single one of these "noble" primitive societies is at odds/war with their neighbors who speak a different dialect/language that is also "noble".


Oooh, nice showoff of prejudice and ignorance there.

Relax wrote:It is communication.


Yes, and just as it makes a huge difference if communication is done eye to eye, over a phoneline or text only, the language can make an even greater difference.
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Re: Spoken Languages In The Honorverse ...
Post by Relax   » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:15 am

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In short, you said, I disagree, but then went into detail how you agree with me. Tried to even show how Swedish is so amazing. Yippee skippy, when writing you can take all the spaces out/between/words/to/make/yourselves/feel/special. Yea, ok, way to go. Everyone can do that or close enough. Make your written language impossible to read. Join the Chinese and Egyptians. Might notice, both of those written languages are on the rubbish heap in the dustbin of history due to impracticality.

As for "beauty" of a language, it is all in the ear of the beholder. Every language can have trills, fluff, and lace thrown on it to make it "beautiful". Just ask the damned British. They made an art of their "beautiful diction" BS as a distinguishing class benchmark from the "peasants" by rounding vowels and creating a melodious voice. Well at least in their ears. Everyone else thought they were pretentious uptight self righteous pricks.

PS. There has been not a single group of people, be they "noble" stone age people or technologically advanced people who are not constantly at war. Equating, a vanishing language of a primitive technological people with "nobility" and "peace" is COMPLETE BULL. War is human nature. Believing otherwise is racism.
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Re: Spoken Languages In The Honorverse ...
Post by Maldorian   » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:40 am

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One fact is, that English is simpler than other languages!

My motherlanguage is german! I lerned english in School so I can say that´s easier to learn!

I don´t know how big the differences are between French, Spain, Italian or another european language to english, but it could be the same: easier to lern!
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Re: Spoken Languages In The Honorverse ...
Post by JohnRoth   » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:45 am

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Hey folks, calm down a bit, will you?

Chinese is not yet in the dustbin of history. In fact, technology has slowed down its trip in that direction - there's a lot of smartphone software that makes it easier (or at least less difficult) to compose a message in Chinese characters.

Other languages on the endangered list include two of the remaining Celtic languages: Irish and Scots-Irish. Welsh has never been endangered, and Cornish seems to be reviving after a near-death experience.

English is not one of the easier languages to learn. Some people are simply better at learning languages than others.
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