Black Jack vs The Salamander

This summer, being a tad short on new works from RFC, I wound up reading books from a few other authors. One series that really caught me was the Lost Fleet saga by Jack Campbell, and I just realized one of the reasons why. The main character has a legend they aren't really comfortable with, were officially dead and came back, fell in love with a fellow officer in their chain of command and couldn't do anything about it, and were a legendary fleet commander who finally tipped the balance in a seemingly endless war. Sound like anyone we know?

This did lead to the inevitable question of if Black Jack and the Salamander went toe to toe, who would win? With all due apology to RFC, I am leaning towards Black Jack. How about the rest of my fellow Honorverse addicts, do you agree or disagree? Do you have another fantasy match-up? Anything else that connects to this topic? Have at it comrades.

Had the same reason for reading The Lost Fleet saga.

(Still waiting for the remainder of the Beyond the Frontier stories to come out)

I think there isn't much between Black Jack and The Salamander, they both have their own strengths and weaknesses.

The biggest obstacle to comparison though is the differences in technology, because of that we are not comparing like for like.

However I think that given the same technologies The Salamander would just about pip Black Jack.

On the subject of Jack Campbell, have you read the Stark series he wrote under his true name of John Hemry?

I often thought that the rebellion against the officer corps resonated with how a lot of the NCos and ORs in the SLN must feel like when their idiot officers try to take on the GA fleets.

You might like to read the Star Force series by B.V. Larson.

How would Kyle Riggs stand up to The Salamander or Black Jack?

tourist wrote:This summer, being a tad short on new works from RFC, I wound up reading books from a few other authors. One series that really caught me was the Lost Fleet saga by Jack Campbell, and I just realized one of the reasons why. The main character has a legend they aren't really comfortable with, were officially dead and came back, fell in love with a fellow officer in their chain of command and couldn't do anything about it, and were a legendary fleet commander who finally tipped the balance in a seemingly endless war. Sound like anyone we know?

This did lead to the inevitable question of if Black Jack and the Salamander went toe to toe, who would win? With all due apology to RFC, I am leaning towards Black Jack. How about the rest of my fellow Honorverse addicts, do you agree or disagree? Do you have another fantasy match-up? Anything else that connects to this topic? Have at it comrades.

Black Jack, with out a doubt. Because he is a character in War Porn, and thus can not be defeated.

crewdude48 wrote:

tourist wrote:This summer, being a tad short on new works from RFC, I wound up reading books from a few other authors. One series that really caught me was the Lost Fleet saga by Jack Campbell, and I just realized one of the reasons why. The main character has a legend they aren't really comfortable with, were officially dead and came back, fell in love with a fellow officer in their chain of command and couldn't do anything about it, and were a legendary fleet commander who finally tipped the balance in a seemingly endless war. Sound like anyone we know?

This did lead to the inevitable question of if Black Jack and the Salamander went toe to toe, who would win? With all due apology to RFC, I am leaning towards Black Jack. How about the rest of my fellow Honorverse addicts, do you agree or disagree? Do you have another fantasy match-up? Anything else that connects to this topic? Have at it comrades.

Black Jack, with out a doubt. Because he is a character in War Porn, and thus can not be defeated.

No, the Salamander would win - because nobody argues with a woman and wins. More seriously, Black Jack's victories are the result of, on the one hand, very judicious use of his resources and, on the other, a revival of military discipline and fleet tactics that had been lost over the preceding years when he was in survival fleet. HH, on the other hand, has a flair for tactical genius which overcomes the simple but disciplined tactics that have made Black Jack successful.

crewdude48 wrote:

tourist wrote:This summer, being a tad short on new works from RFC, I wound up reading books from a few other authors. One series that really caught me was the Lost Fleet saga by Jack Campbell, and I just realized one of the reasons why. The main character has a legend they aren't really comfortable with, were officially dead and came back, fell in love with a fellow officer in their chain of command and couldn't do anything about it, and were a legendary fleet commander who finally tipped the balance in a seemingly endless war. Sound like anyone we know?

This did lead to the inevitable question of if Black Jack and the Salamander went toe to toe, who would win? With all due apology to RFC, I am leaning towards Black Jack. How about the rest of my fellow Honorverse addicts, do you agree or disagree? Do you have another fantasy match-up? Anything else that connects to this topic? Have at it comrades.

Black Jack, with out a doubt. Because he is a character in War Porn, and thus can not be defeated.

I never understood why so many people throw the term War porn around. I seriously doubt anyone reads the Lost Fleet books and has the kind of reaction they do to porn.

And I think who would win would depend on what setting the fight took place in. I suppose if you found a setting where the tech, weapons, and ships involved were utterly different from that of both settings I would give it to Honor.

Roguevictory wrote:

crewdude48 wrote:Black Jack, with out a doubt. Because he is a character in War Porn, and thus can not be defeated.

I never understood why so many people throw the term War porn around. I seriously doubt anyone reads the Lost Fleet books and has the kind of reaction they do to porn.

And I think who would win would depend on what setting the fight took place in. I suppose if you found a setting where the tech, weapons, and ships involved were utterly different from that of both settings I would give it to Honor.

War Porn is a combat story where good guys whose name we have known for more than a couple of chapters can not die. This describes the Lost Fleet to a T. In the real world, no matter how good you are, an unlucky shot can kill you.

Roguevictory wrote:I never understood why so many people throw the term War porn around. I seriously doubt anyone reads the Lost Fleet books and has the kind of reaction they do to porn.

And I think who would win would depend on what setting the fight took place in. I suppose if you found a setting where the tech, weapons, and ships involved were utterly different from that of both settings I would give it to Honor.

The term "war porn" has nothing to do with pornography, and little to do with visceral reactions to pornography. It is a common term among readers of military fiction (modern, historical, or sf), referring to a certain form of the genre which is written solely to depict the heroes vanquishing the foe. Generally, war porn has little characterization and less literary merit. The sides are black and white, and the good guys win. The only people we see die are the ones who deserve it. Most of the deaths are faceless. It's the literary version of a poorly written first person shooter game, where you just blow things away until you win.

David Weber has expressed his aversion to war porn (using that term) many times. That's one of the reasons the term is so common in this forum.

As someone who has read the black jack books, I have to say the term war porn doesn't really apply. I mean sure it is lucky that he hasn't died yet, but that would kinda kill off the series. If every series was dubbed War Porn because the only POV doesn't die, then yea... It's not like he doesn't take some pretty hefty losses along the way, if you do the math over the course of the books he looses like half of his ships.

Now a complaint could be made that few named characters die, and those that do tended to be jerks and or traitors. While this is true, I would also point out that there aren't many named characters in the first place, this is kind of an issue. Hell on the main characters own ship we don't even know the name of the XO. For awhile I almost thought that there wasn't an XO. We learn about... what 4-5 captains with any level of detail, including Black Jack's own flag captain? Of those 2 are dead at this point. Not many named characters beyond that. It is kind of hard to kill off a character who doesn't exist in the first place.