What is the path to electricity?

Expert snuggler wrote:

cralkhi wrote:The way to overturn the Writ is to offer a more appealing alternative. Proof and logic are far less important.

Insightful. Perhaps the most important psychological weapon will be the library of religious texts in the Cave. Turn loose some faiths that have a proven record of spreading virally.

The resulting civil wars would be a horror bad enough to deter the good guys. Having new religions running around, which have a way of being fanatical, might seriously interfere with creating Safehold's Enlightenment.

If they had time, I think what Staynair is already starting to do would work.

He's already moving the Church of Charis to emphasize direct relationship with God and de-emphasize the "Archangels"; emphasize mercy, love and understanding and de-emphasize the Inquisition.

Over a couple of generations, with more emphasis on a personal relationship with God, this could set the stage to introduce the Earth religions again.

But the timescale for that is probably a century or so, far too long for the "Return of the Archangels" deadline.

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I can't see any way to do it in 15-20 years short of overt revelation of advanced technology in an undeniable way.

The Church of Charis has already renounced the punishments demanded by the Book of Schueler (or even the whole Book). And as the recent history of the CoGA shows, willfully ignoring some rules weakens the OTHER rules in the same rule set. Like the Proscriptions.

So the path to electricity is exactly what Charis is doing now: promote an inquisitive, innovative mindset and spread it widely, and eventually SOMEONE is going to start poking at the Proscriptions.

I believe the Archangel Chihiro said it best when she wrote "The path to electricity is paved with good intentions..."

I may have missed something, but there wpuldn't be that much in Safehold technologies prior to the schism that would generate static electricity would there?
And what does occur would be storm related aka the Anger of Schuler or whomever.
Point being, no easy way to get the general populace used to the concept of electrickery.

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Annachie wrote:I may have missed something, but there wpuldn't be that much in Safehold technologies prior to the schism that would generate static electricity would there?
And what does occur would be storm related aka the Anger of Schuler or whomever.
Point being, no easy way to get the general populace used to the concept of electrickery.

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You have missed something. The ancient Greeks knew about static electricity over 2500 years ago. It is quite simple to create static electricity. Amber and fur can produce quite shocking amounts of static electricity. Safehold certainly knows of the existence of static electricity in situations not associated with storms.

The Proscriptions go into such details about electricity specifically because it is so easy to accidentally discover. The problem is not getting the general populace used to the concept of electricity--the problem is convincing them that it is not a holy symbol of the power of Langhorne.

> Amber and fur can produce quite shocking amounts of static electricity

I see what you did there.

The long term game might include undermining the Church by setting up competing independent institutions (think Masons)to attract people's loyalties, and having writers like Mark Twain brutally questioning Church humbug.

Shorter term, there are now machinists and inventors in Charis, some of them young enough to defy rules, some of them visionary enough (Howsmynn) to be looking for excuses to introduce electricity. They are already over the hurdle of learning to think for themselves. If they are like their kin on today's Earth, their loyalty is to the technology they work with.

Once people want to use electricity they will find rationalizations.

The obstacle is Father Paityr. He saw a way to approve steam engines, but he is a man of principle and I don't see him giving a dispensation for electroplating, electric light, or motors.

If you go back to HFAF and read that section where Father Paityr discusses steam with Howsmyn, he clearly recognizes that steam is against the proscriptions and uses what he calls chop logic to rationalize his way around the proscriptions rather than complying with them.

Don

Expert snuggler wrote:> Amber and fur can produce quite shocking amounts of static electricity

I see what you did there.

The long term game might include undermining the Church by setting up competing independent institutions (think Masons)to attract people's loyalties, and having writers like Mark Twain brutally questioning Church humbug.

Shorter term, there are now machinists and inventors in Charis, some of them young enough to defy rules, some of them visionary enough (Howsmynn) to be looking for excuses to introduce electricity. They are already over the hurdle of learning to think for themselves. If they are like their kin on today's Earth, their loyalty is to the technology they work with.

Once people want to use electricity they will find rationalizations.

The obstacle is Father Paityr. He saw a way to approve steam engines, but he is a man of principle and I don't see him giving a dispensation for electroplating, electric light, or motors.

Paityr is not the problem. As we've said numerous times in this thread--the problem is everyone else in the world. The people of Safehold know that electricity is Proscribed. Until the Proscriptions are abolished, electricity simply cannot be permitted.

Please read the "Why can't Charis have electricity? (Asked Sun May 12, 2013)", in the FAQ section at the top of this page.

Understood! But that's already changing. Howsmynn wants to use electricity on the factory floor.

My opinions about what's possible are shaped by childhood religious education classes. I asked several times, before I learned it was futile, why there was so much difference between our holy book (never mind which) and what the adults were doing all around me.

After seeing how easily and universally people hid behind "That was for another time" and "It's not to be taken literally" it's easy for me to think the Safeholder rank and file (to the extent they even matter) could be talked around to hesitant acceptance, at least if the Church of Charis said it was doctrinally sound. That's where Father Paityr comes in.

He's too honest a man, I believe, to put his name behind, say, an argument from agency law. Safehold must have that concept or business couldn't work. The argument would be that since the archangels have delegated their work to mortal agents, they must automatically have delegated their tools for use by their servants. Especially since the archangels have left this world, so nobody can use their tools to do their work except their mortal successors, and their holy work must continue.

No Wylsynn would argue that without choking, but Clyntahn could talk himself into believing that he should be as powerful as an archangel.

Expert snuggler wrote:Understood! But that's already changing. Howsmynn wants to use electricity on the factory floor.

My opinions about what's possible are shaped by childhood religious education classes. I asked several times, before I learned it was futile, why there was so much difference between our holy book (never mind which) and what the adults were doing all around me.

After seeing how easily and universally people hid behind "That was for another time" and "It's not to be taken literally" it's easy for me to think the Safeholder rank and file (to the extent they even matter) could be talked around to hesitant acceptance, at least if the Church of Charis said it was doctrinally sound. That's where Father Paityr comes in.

He's too honest a man, I believe, to put his name behind, say, an argument from agency law. Safehold must have that concept or business couldn't work. The argument would be that since the archangels have delegated their work to mortal agents, they must automatically have delegated their tools for use by their servants. Especially since the archangels have left this world, so nobody can use their tools to do their work except their mortal successors, and their holy work must continue.

No Wylsynn would argue that without choking, but Clyntahn could talk himself into believing that he should be as powerful as an archangel.

Safehold is not Earth. The Writ and the Proscriptions are taken quite literally and explicitly. You cannot compare Terran historical religions with the Church of God Awaiting; there are numerous fundamental differences. You will be misled if you try to extrapolate from such a comparison.

No believer (which is basically everone who does not know the Truth) will accept a violation of an explicit Proscription like electricity, under any circumstances. The Proscriptions _must_ be overturned before that would be possible.

If you don't believe me, believe the Author.