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What if Schueler and Langhorn were mind-altered by Bedard?

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What if Schueler and Langhorn were mind-altered by Bedard?
Post by Tararoys   » Sun Sep 06, 2015 6:24 am

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We've seen three forms of mind-altering in the Safehold universe: the NEATS, the memory rewrites of the original colonists, and the partial memory recovery that created Sejin Khody.

We've seen hints that Chihiro and Schueler may have been behind the Rakuri and the war against the Fallen. What if some unscrupulous person, in addition to diddling with the memories of the colonists, decided to diddle with the minds of select command crew staff instead?

There may have been an opportunity to do so while the fleet was in hiding while Shan-Wei and her terraforming crews were working on Safehold. Would the rest of the command crew want to stay awake for the years that took, or would they stick as much of the crew as possible into stasis to stave off boredom? That might give Bedard and/or Chihiro the opportunity to meddle with the minds of the command crew in more subtle ways than the blatant meddling she did with the colonists.

In the interests of pure speculation, what if Chihiro had somebody program select members of the command crew to actually believe they were archangels and angels? Mostly, for Payter's sake, I'd like Schueler to turn out to be one more innocent victim instead of the monster capable of writing the book of Schueler. RFC has written any characters who are vindictively evil, and Chihiro might be the sort of person who takes someone who initially opposed his policies, minds crew them, force them to fight as his champion, and then saddle them with the reputation of being the church's chief torturer. Her certainly did a number on Shan-Wei, so why not a different sort of smear job for Schueler?

The real question is, would it serve the story better to have one or two truly evil people ablue to mind-warp anybody they please, or would it serve the story better if the command crew traumatized by the total destruction of their civilization were genuinely trying to do what they thought was the right thing?
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Re: What if Schueler and Langhorn were mind-altered by Bedar
Post by Keith_w   » Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:21 am

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I think that if anyone had convinced Bedard to do this, it would have been Langhorne. The Mil-command team knew he was going to be an issue from the day his name was put forward for the job, so I don't believe that any mind modifications would have been required. It is also possible that the rest of the Langhorne crew, including Bedard, were selected at the suggestion of Langhorne, allowing him to skew that teams attitude in his favour, although I don't recall any textev of this.
--
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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Re: What if Schueler and Langhorn were mind-altered by Bedar
Post by Dilandu   » Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:40 am

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Frankly, it is not completely impossible (after all, it's RFC ;) ) but highly unlikely. With all respect to Langhorne - i really like his transformation from the "mua-ha-ha"'ing megalomaniac to the tragic figure, who was unable to comprehend with terrible reality and enormous responsibility - but i doubt that he was mind-altered. It would simplificate the situation too much, turning him into the victim.
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Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: What if Schueler and Langhorn were mind-altered by Bedar
Post by OJsDad   » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:22 am

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I don't think there was any mind altering of the command crew. They would have to stay out of cryo incase the Gbaba showed up.

Remember, there were a number of years that passed from the time Langhorne was killed to the time that the War of the Fallen had started. I don't recall anything from RFC that indicated that Langhorne wasn't responsible for the strike on Alexandria. So he's guilty for that.

As for the War of the Fallen, I think that is mostly on Chihiro. Schueler initially supported him, but I think he began to realize that he was on the wrong side. I think he eventually stole the Hamilcar, thus a return by an ArchAngel someday. Chihiro was so pissed that he made Schuler the major heavy with the Book of Schueler.

Started to reread OAR. I've wondered if the Angel we meet at the beginning is either Schueler or Chihiro.
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Re: What if Schueler and Langhorn were mind-altered by Bedar
Post by Dilandu   » Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:35 am

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OJsDad wrote: I don't recall anything from RFC that indicated that Langhorne wasn't responsible for the strike on Alexandria. So he's guilty for that.

.


There was a hint in Saint Khody memories; the Fallens, that he fought, believe that it was Chichiro, who ordered the Alexandria attack. It may be not true, but it is possible...
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: What if Schueler and Langhorn were mind-altered by Bedar
Post by Dilandu   » Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:39 am

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Ah yes. Here it is:

For that matter, after talking with him, Kohdy had come to question whether or not Langhorne himself had loosed the Rakurai on Armageddon Reef. The Fallen who’d taken up Shan-wei’s struggle after the destruction of Armageddon Reef had insisted it was Chihiro and Schueler who’d turned to evil, not Shan-wei, but Kohdy had always brushed those assertions aside. After all, Shan-wei was the Mother of Lies, wasn’t she?


So there was some doubts about the origin of Alexandria attack.

Personally, I interpreter this as an indication, that Langhorne ordered the attack, but not on that scale. Some sort of warning shot, probably. But someone tampered with Rakurai controls, and the system gave full barrage instead.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: What if Schueler and Langhorn were mind-altered by Bedar
Post by n7axw   » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:20 am

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OJsDad wrote:I don't think there was any mind altering of the command crew. They would have to stay out of cryo incase the Gbaba showed up.

Remember, there were a number of years that passed from the time Langhorne was killed to the time that the War of the Fallen had started. I don't recall anything from RFC that indicated that Langhorne wasn't responsible for the strike on Alexandria. So he's guilty for that.

As for the War of the Fallen, I think that is mostly on Chihiro. Schueler initially supported him, but I think he began to realize that he was on the wrong side. I think he eventually stole the Hamilcar, thus a return by an ArchAngel someday. Chihiro was so pissed that he made Schuler the major heavy with the Book of Schueler.

Started to reread OAR. I've wondered if the Angel we meet at the beginning is either Schueler or Chihiro.


The angel we meet at the beginning of OAR is not an archangel. Both Schueler and Chihiro were archangels.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: What if Schueler and Langhorn were mind-altered by Bedar
Post by SWM   » Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:33 pm

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Please be careful about unmarked spoilers!

Just hold on to your tongue a little longer. :)
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Re: What if Schueler and Langhorn were mind-altered by Bedar
Post by n7axw   » Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:46 pm

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SWM wrote:Please be careful about unmarked spoilers!

Just hold on to your tongue a little longer. :)


If it makes you feel better SWM, that post did contain spoiler material, but not much. Most of it was pretty speculative.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: What if Schueler and Langhorn were mind-altered by Bedar
Post by SWM   » Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:55 pm

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n7axw wrote:
SWM wrote:Please be careful about unmarked spoilers!

Just hold on to your tongue a little longer. :)


If it makes you feel better SWM, that post did contain spoiler material, but not much. Most of it was pretty speculative.

Don

It looks to me like Dilandu quoted a Snippet. That's not "speculative".
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