Build a Fleet!

Weird Harold wrote:
2) If one system makes you retreat, the other 19 systems follow you home before you can rest and refit to try again. Along with whatever mutual defense partners I may have.

You and your 40 BC( P)'s + your 200 DD will do exactly what when faced with a few dozen to a hundred SD( P)'s ? You are suggesting your main strength is in the in system defences and you would go out to get your mobile fleet destroyed away from your defence?

Weird Harold wrote:3) If you attack another system -- mine or anyone else's -- I would suggest you look over your shoulder for that Grand Alliance that is so worried about revanchists and conquistadors. The may or may not be there, but as of 1922 or so they're grand strategy is to prevent any threats from growing out of the former SL.

And what if I am more important to them then you are? What about if their government changes and their priorities change? What if they have something else to deal with? Or they put you in my sphere of influence and tell me to do with my sphere as I please? How well did it work out for Poland just because they had powerful allies? OR Czechoslovakia for that matter?


There might be a break in relations between the GA members or they might see it as advantageous to essentially encourage militarization by successor states in order to keep them busy fighting each other and scheming against each other there might be any number of reasons that they hang you out to dry and you won't have the GA to help you. Or what if I flip the tables on Manticore and lead the next technological revolution? They knock on my door and I destroy anyone they send to me.

From David:

In response to the question about the Beowulf Self-Defense Force, no, it was not secretly outfitted with Manticoran war-fighting technology prior to the current crisis. It has very good technology — rather better than the SLN's, for example — but it had no need to build Manticoran-level hardware and both Beowulf and Manticore had a vested interest in not poking the sleeping giant and getting the League fired up to acquire really modern weaponry. There's no way that Beowulf, as firmly integrated into the League as it was, could have realistically expected to upgrade its hardware across the board without someone in the SLN noticing, even if they did install "inhibitors." I'm not saying that it might not have been possible to get away with it; I'm saying that Beowulf wouldn't have made the attempt. If it was worth concealing in the first place, the probability that they could get away with hiding it would have been poor, and an effort to conceal it might only have succeeded in drawing unwanted attention to it. But, to be frank, they didn't need it. The only people who had it were close friends of theirs, and to some extent Beowulf shared the SLN's motives for not spreading that hardware across the galaxy and destabilizing the tactical model which had supported the League's military supremacy for so long. That's changed now, of course, and Beowulf's industrial base is good enough that it can begin putting Manticoran designs into production very quickly, although production levels would still be lower than those Manticore had attained before Oyster Bay. At the present time, however, Beowulf does not have, for example, the internal capacity to fire MDMs or Manticoran inertial compensators or Manticoran FTL com capacity. Some of that can be retrofitted as "strap-ons" and all of it can be put into production locally, but for right now refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just about as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships.

Weird Harold wrote:1) I'm not arming up with BC(p)s, I'm arming up with BCL(p)s --

Minor nitpick here WH.... but BC, BCP, BCL, are all more or less individual types. A BCL(P), is just an undersized SD(P), that removes the entire point of the BCL over a BC(P). Namely *NOT* using pods, and having internal launchers with the DDMs, with ammo storage giving almost 4x the firing time. It also features a massively stronger hull, which is not made weaker by having the internal pod rails, which is the main weakness of the BC(P) compared to an SD(P).

And when you compare the sizes between BC (900KT), BCP (1.7MT), BCL (2.5MT), and finally BB (Triumphant 4.5MT)... trying to make a mutant BCL(P), has made you into a full sized BB and possibly even into low DN tonnage. At which point all the reasons given to William Alexander about why they didn't start building DN(P)'s comes into play (it's weaker, you'd have to design from scratch, inevitable bugs, etc etc etc)


So for your fictious fleet, you'd build either BC(L), OR BC(P), but you can't have both roles in the same hull.


Edit: from the wiki, regarding battleships:

Larger than battlecruisers, massing between two and four million tons, the battleship occupied an uneasy space between the better armed and armored dreadnoughts and superdreadnoughts and the faster, cheaper battlecruisers. Ton-for-ton, a larger ship of the wall was more deadly than a battleship due to sturdier construction techniques and higher portional tonnage that could be devoted to weapons.

So the BCL is already technically a battleship, that features "waller" style hull, but has the speed and general role of a cruiser hull. Which more or less officially makes it a Battleship, but Manticore has it's fetish for battlecruisers, like the Montanan's like their cowboy lifestyle.

Armed Neo Bob et al. Hrmm I must have been remembering wrong on Manticore pop. Think I got it confused with its GDP growth.

Duckk wrote:From David:

In response to the question about the Beowulf Self-Defense Force, no, it was not secretly outfitted with Manticoran war-fighting technology prior to the current crisis. It has very good technology — rather better than the SLN's, for example — but it had no need to build Manticoran-level hardware and both Beowulf and Manticore had a vested interest in not poking the sleeping giant and getting the League fired up to acquire really modern weaponry. There's no way that Beowulf, as firmly integrated into the League as it was, could have realistically expected to upgrade its hardware across the board without someone in the SLN noticing, even if they did install "inhibitors." I'm not saying that it might not have been possible to get away with it; I'm saying that Beowulf wouldn't have made the attempt. If it was worth concealing in the first place, the probability that they could get away with hiding it would have been poor, and an effort to conceal it might only have succeeded in drawing unwanted attention to it. But, to be frank, they didn't need it. The only people who had it were close friends of theirs, and to some extent Beowulf shared the SLN's motives for not spreading that hardware across the galaxy and destabilizing the tactical model which had supported the League's military supremacy for so long. That's changed now, of course, and Beowulf's industrial base is good enough that it can begin putting Manticoran designs into production very quickly, although production levels would still be lower than those Manticore had attained before Oyster Bay. At the present time, however, Beowulf does not have, for example, the internal capacity to fire MDMs or Manticoran inertial compensators or Manticoran FTL com capacity. Some of that can be retrofitted as "strap-ons" and all of it can be put into production locally, but for right now refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just about as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships.

Thanks Duckk!, I have to ask (though you probably do not know) whether the BSDF is closer to Manticorian 1905 or 1910 warfighting technology - minus the high tech goodies, of course.....

Theemile wrote:
Thanks Duckk!, I have to ask (though you probably do not know) whether the BSDF is closer to Manticorian 1905 or 1910 warfighting technology - minus the high tech goodies, of course.....

It seems that Beowulf and its military enjoy at least two super weapon/super power and that is common sense and competence, something the SLN, its military leadership and its civilian leadership do not have.

Theemile wrote:Thanks Duckk!, I have to ask (though you probably do not know) whether the BSDF is closer to Manticorian 1905 or 1910 warfighting technology - minus the high tech goodies, of course.....

Probably 1850-refitted-in-1905. It's hard to compare like-for-like, because Manticore was steadily moving towards large-scale production - for example, building an entire class of 36 in only a few years, starting in 1892 and then discontinuing production in favour of a brand new class first laid down in 1895, of which they built another 67 in six years. Beowulf has certainly not been doing anything like that.

I figure the Samothrace-class SD is the closest stand-in for what Beowulf has.

Jonathan_S did point out in another thread that the SLN's single-drive missiles had interesting power/endurance stats and were(very slightly) superior to some Manticoran SDMs, if deficient in a whole lot of other areas.

Sigs wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:
2) If one system makes you retreat, the other 19 systems follow you home before you can rest and refit to try again. Along with whatever mutual defense partners I may have.

You and your 40 BC( P)'s + your 200 DD will do exactly what when faced with a few dozen to a hundred SD( P)'s ? You are suggesting your main strength is in the in system defences and you would go out to get your mobile fleet destroyed away from your defence?

You mean I'd be facing those mangled and damaged SDs that retreated from my fixed defenses? Those demoralized Crews who had to retreat from a system without decent mobile defenses?

I'm going to distract anything really combat capable and destroy your reserves, repair facilities and orbital infrastructure -- then run like hell and do it again to your other 21 systems.

Sigs wrote:And what if I am more important to them then you are? What about if their government changes and their priorities change? What if they have something else to deal with? Or they put you in my sphere of influence and tell me to do with my sphere as I please? How well did it work out for Poland just because they had powerful allies? OR Czechoslovakia for that matter?

You really don't believe that Manticore will continue to be concerned about successor states being bigger than they are or aggressive threats to peace and galactic stability.

You've refused anything other than a bilateral peace treaty (apparently grudgingly signed,) with the GA and you think turning Conquistador is going to reassure them you're no danger?

They may or may not show up on your doorstep today, but Germany eventually paid for their aggression with total defeat -- what make you think your conquests will work out any better in the long run?

Weird Harold wrote:

Sigs wrote:You and your 40 BC( P)'s + your 200 DD will do exactly what when faced with a few dozen to a hundred SD( P)'s ? You are suggesting your main strength is in the in system defences and you would go out to get your mobile fleet destroyed away from your defence?

You mean I'd be facing those mangled and damaged SDs that retreated from my fixed defenses? Those demoralized Crews who had to retreat from a system without decent mobile defenses?

I'm going to distract anything really combat capable and destroy your reserves, repair facilities and orbital infrastructure -- then run like hell and do it again to your other 21 systems.

So, you get system defenses and your opponent does not?



So, your opponent is so stupid as to not scout and bring too few forces to get the job done every time? In reality, you built the equivalent of 400 SD's in fixed defenses to beat off the 200 SD's opponent over 20 systems. SO, 20x400 is roughy 8000 SD cost.

Your opponent, spent the 200SD and is actually able to attack/defend, and still has 7800 SD worth of $$$ left over for 100SD worth of defenses over 20 system that easily beats off your BC's and DD's, and leaving them enough money for 6000 SD's, or save the money.

Relax wrote:Armed Neo Bob et al. Hrmm I must have been remembering wrong on Manticore pop. Think I got it confused with its GDP growth.

Populations are referred to sometimes in the text, but it is always approximate; I didn't realize until I went looking that there was never a figure given for San Martino, which makes the total pop of the Star Kingdom a big ????. I just always assumed it was about what Manticore A had, but only rfc knows.

How did you figure GDP growth? The only references I remember offhand was the statement that it approached old Earth before OBS, and exceeded it during the early years of the war. I am not remembering any specifics though.

Rob

R