Build a Fleet!

Jonathan_S wrote:

Sigs wrote:I think we are all ignoring Beowulf, even though it was part of the League, it still had a fleet with 36 SD's without help from the League or the SLN. So if Beowulf can maintain a fleet of 36 SD's without putting too much strain on their economy, my guess would be that many core systems may very well have the ability to maintain similar numbers if not more.

Beowulf is deep in the core, so likely well up on the scale for both population and industrialization. Plus even better access than Grayson to Manticore's junction and the trade benefits that brings. (Plus don't they also get preferential junction use rates?)

On the other hand, they had 36 SDs that we saw operating together. Unless that was an extreme (and very well timed) all-effort surge that most likely means they have more like 60-90 SDs; with the rest getting major maintenance, upgrades, crew retraining, or working up for service.
The rough rule of thumb is that you need about 3 ships for each you keep deloyed. Though having the confrontation in the home system could let you fudge that quite a bit and surge the ships that are still working up, and possibly delay routine maintenance dockings. But it's unlikely you'd disrupt scheduled overhauls (for example).


so on the one hand, unusual economic power (even for a core world; which it itself above the galactic average) but on the other a good sized fleet of SDs for a single system in peacetime.

It was mentioned that we were seeing the entire BSDF Wall when we saw the 36 SDs. Does that include maintenance spares and a reserve? Don't know - but it read like it was the entire force.

Weird Harold wrote:
Let's rephrase that question:

How many of the Battleships and/or Carriers used since WWII have belonged to someone other than the US or a US Allie?

You know, we can change the conditions for everything to fit our point. It just happens that the other Nations using Carriers haven't been involved in too many wars lately…(Brazil, Thailand, South Korea, India, Japan, China, Russia, France, UK, Italy, Spain, Australia)

Weird Harold wrote:How many Battleships are still in commission anywhere in the world -- not counting museum ships.

How many Trireme's are still in service? This by the way is a legitimate question because both Battleships and Trireme's are obsolete so I don't know any nation that will want to build them. Battleships though, at the hight of their power were widespread and were not restricted only to the great powers.

Weird Harold wrote:The wars you cite, since WWWII, are all the equivalent of Verge "neobarb" systems. Most of the combatants, other than the US or US Allies, fielded no more than a cruiser and even the largest armed force (Iraq, 7Mil soldiers+tanks) only fielded PT boats and coast guard cutters.

But carriers were used in all those wars.. not my fault the US keeps fighting weaker countries that can't really fight back…and by the way one of those wars was with a land locked nations… can't really expect them to field a carrier.

Simple reason major powers have not fought... MAD.

Sigs wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:How many Battleships are still in commission anywhere in the world -- not counting museum ships.

How many Trireme's are still in service? This by the way is a legitimate question because both Battleships and Trireme's are obsolete so I don't know any nation that will want to build them. Battleships though, at the height of their power were widespread and were not restricted only to the great powers.

That's kind of the point. Superdreadnoughts are the Battleships of the future. (BB starships are the ironclads of the future.) The Havenite wars were "the height of their powers."

They are not going to completely disappear from the Honorverse immediately, but we have texev that smaller ships and system defense missiles can stand up to large forces of SDs (at least SLN SDs )

Charles and his ilk are going to have a field day selling cheap defense systems and over-gunned small ships to budget conscious systems and multi-system star nations/empires. Some are even going to be marginally effective, if sub-optimal, when built in large enough numbers -- i.e. in continuous production for thirty years without being used.

Manticore, and by extension the GA, has a history of providing defensive systems to allies and implied an intention to continue that with as many successor states as possible. I expect RFC to make that happen and the only way I see to make it plausible is to create a multi-national Mutual Defense Force or peace-keeping force that fills idle days squashing pirates and slavers.

Relax wrote:

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:regarding comments above by Theemile, Jonathan_S and Sigs, concerning the ability of Grayson to support a fleet.

Grayson's been on a war footing for about 600 years; and it didn't have a merchant marine to speak of. That is one reason for the differences cited in HoS (and WoH)for their fleet mix, and their ability to build so many wallers. They didn't have to build for commerce protection and all the other missions, so they have (relatively) fewer light ships.

Relax, a minor nit. Manticore's population in ca. 1900 was @3 billion; Old Earth istr is about 4 times that.

Rob

Grayson did so with only 1/4 of its population and of that 1/4, most are too young or too old... So, 1/8 of its population. No prolong.

And No, Manticore only recently surpassed 3Billion. It was not until AAC. Yes, we on the net have wondered how the population of Manticore "jumped" roughly a Billion in only 15 years... RFCe said, immigration due to the war.

I based my comment on text, Relax
From More than Honor: The Universe of Honor Harrington.

(5) Planets of the Star Kingdom of Manticore
Manticore: (Manticore-A III) The capital planet of the Star Kingdom, Manticore's {SNIP!}. Population as of 1900 pd (280 al) was approximately 1.5 billion. The major shipyards and space industry of the Star Kingdom of Manticore orbit the capital planet.

Sphinx: Sphinx (Manticore-A IV) {SNIP} Planetary population as of 1900 pd was 1,048,000,000.
* * *
Gryphon: With a diameter of 13,200 km., Gryphon (Manticore-B IV) {SNIP}
As of 1900 pd, Gryphon had a planetary population of 575,000,000 and a belter population of 298,500,000.

1.5 billion, + 1.05 billion, +.575 +.3 billions. Since he was so exact. 3.425 billions, approximately, in 1900.

From War of Honor:

I did a little research when Rochelle identified Lynx, too. According to the most recent data in our files, which is probably at least ten or fifteen T-years out of date, the system population is around two-point-three billion.

from House of Steel:

Manticore: The total planetary population is just under 1.5 billion people as of 1921 PD.
Sphinx:Planetary population as of the 1920 PD census (291 AL) is approximately 1.1 billion humans and twelve million treecats.
Gryphon:As of 1920 PD, Gryphon had a planetary population of no more than six hundred million. //Total belter population as of 1920 PD was approximately three hundred million.

That is only a little different from the earler text.
1.5 + 1.1 +.6 + .3 = 3.5 Billion. Adding in San Martin and Lynx ought to about double it. I looked in AAC for details on San Martin, but didn't see any specifics, though. I also looked through AAC for references to "population" and didn't find anything specific; I'd appreciate a pointer to a place to look, or a link to RFC's comment.
Regards,
Rob

Jonathan_S wrote:

Sigs wrote:I think we are all ignoring Beowulf, even though it was part of the League, it still had a fleet with 36 SD's without help from the League or the SLN. So if Beowulf can maintain a fleet of 36 SD's without putting too much strain on their economy, my guess would be that many core systems may very well have the ability to maintain similar numbers if not more.

Beowulf is deep in the core, so likely well up on the scale for both population and industrialization. Plus even better access than Grayson to Manticore's junction and the trade benefits that brings. (Plus don't they also get preferential junction use rates?)

On the other hand, they had 36 SDs that we saw operating together. Unless that was an extreme (and very well timed) all-effort surge that most likely means they have more like 60-90 SDs; with the rest getting major maintenance, upgrades, crew retraining, or working up for service.
The rough rule of thumb is that you need about 3 ships for each you keep deloyed. Though having the confrontation in the home system could let you fudge that quite a bit and surge the ships that are still working up, and possibly delay routine maintenance dockings. But it's unlikely you'd disrupt scheduled overhauls (for example).


so on the one hand, unusual economic power (even for a core world; which it itself above the galactic average) but on the other a good sized fleet of SDs for a single system in peacetime.

Theemile wrote:It was mentioned that we were seeing the entire BSDF Wall when we saw the 36 SDs. Does that include maintenance spares and a reserve? Don't know - but it read like it was the entire force.

I don't recall anything that said the 36 ships were Beowulf's entire wall; was that in a post somewhere? I agree with Jonathan_S to a degree, but I expect that is around half of their total.

For those arguing about the economic power of core worlds, it was in the text that Manticore surpassed old Earth only around the start of the story arc, ie., around 1900 or soon after. So old Core worlds with large populations ought to have as much income as Manticore, or almost.

Regards, Rob

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:I don't recall anything that said the 36 ships were Beowulf's entire wall; was that in a post somewhere? I agree with Jonathan_S to a degree, but I expect that is around half of their total.

For those arguing about the economic power of core worlds, it was in the text that Manticore surpassed old Earth only around the start of the story arc, ie., around 1900 or soon after. So old Core worlds with large populations ought to have as much income as Manticore, or almost.

Regards, Rob

Hmm, I went back and looked at the exact wording from ART and I may have been off-base.

"And [Tsang's task group] was also the next best thing to three times the total combat strength of the Beowulf System Defense Force’s thirty-six superdreadnoughts." [ART Ch14](BTW this is Tsang thinking; not an omniscient narrator)


On the face of it that does sound like it was Beowulf's entire force that Tsang saw.

Grasping as straws there may still be some other explanations:
a) Maybe Tsang's intel factored ships down for refit out of the "combat strength".
b) Maybe SLN Intel was wrong about Beowulf's total SDF strength.
c) Maybe a few of Holmon-Sanders' SD weren't Beowulfan (just to make up the numbers for any that couldn't make it).
d) For that matter, despite the Beowulfan rep to the League talking about Tsang's willingness to attack their 36 SDs we have no PoV that confirms that all 36 impeller signatures the SDN saw were real.
e) Or maybe Beowulf did pull of as massive all-effort surge to get every single one of their SDs out of the docks and ready to confront the SLN (they did have a fair bit of advanced warning after all.

We can't know for sure, but the text certainly gives the impression that they didn't have the usual 40-66% unavailable.

Weird Harold wrote:
That's kind of the point. Superdreadnoughts are the Battleships of the future. (BB starships are the ironclads of the future.) The Havenite wars were "the height of their powers."

So the GA is going to start building BC's and below because SD's are obsolete now?

Weird Harold wrote:They are not going to completely disappear from the Honorverse immediately, but we have texev that smaller ships and system defense missiles can stand up to large forces of SDs (at least SLN SDs )

Yeah, massive numbers of stationary defences and light combatants can stand up against technologically equal but the cost will be prohibitive, you will need a LOT of stationary weapons and even more light combatants. A properly planned attack might very well neutralize your stationary defences in the opening minutes of the battle by destroying your Command and Control systems an bringing a lot of ships for PD.

Planning your defences based on the assumption that you would be facing an enemy like the SLN, where the "leadership" is criminally stupid, and their technology is inferior means that you will lose the fist war you fight.

Weird Harold wrote:Charles and his ilk are going to have a field day selling cheap defense systems and over-gunned small ships to budget conscious systems and multi-system star nations/empires. Some are even going to be marginally effective, if sub-optimal, when built in large enough numbers -- i.e. in continuous production for thirty years without being used.

I'm sure that enough spitfires would be able to destroy the current USAF, but the cost in building an obsolete unit, manning it and maintaining it in sufficient numbers to beat a technologically superior foe would make it cheaper just to get the expensive warships than the cheap coffins.

Weird Harold wrote:Manticore, and by extension the GA, has a history of providing defensive systems to allies and implied an intention to continue that with as many successor states as possible. I expect RFC to make that happen and the only way I see to make it plausible is to create a multi-national Mutual Defense Force or peace-keeping force that fills idle days squashing pirates and slavers.

Because the UN has proven how well peacekeeping works… This would lead to exactly the opposite reaction from the rest of the galaxy, instead of being grateful every massacre, every genocide, every violent act will be seen as Manticore's fault and their failure. So in 30 years Manticore will be broke and universally hated.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:I don't recall anything that said the 36 ships were Beowulf's entire wall; was that in a post somewhere? I agree with Jonathan_S to a degree, but I expect that is around half of their total.

For those arguing about the economic power of core worlds, it was in the text that Manticore surpassed old Earth only around the start of the story arc, ie., around 1900 or soon after. So old Core worlds with large populations ought to have as much income as Manticore, or almost.

Regards, Rob

OK, My Mind's going - it may be because of textual changes made between the Earc and the final or maybe Alzheimer's is setting in early. I remember comments that it was the entire BSDF wall, instead I found this:

“No, Ma’am,” Marceau said, still with that peculiar edge to his voice. “It’s originating from near the terminus, but it’s from Vice Admiral Holmon-Sanders, not Traffic Control.”
Tsang glanced quickly at Takeuchi. Marianne Holmon-Sanders was the Beowulf System Defense Force’s senior in-space officer, ranking just behind Admiral Corey McAvoy, the chief of naval operations. She was also the commanding officer of the BSDF’s First Fleet—its only fleet, really—which made the fact that the incoming message was from her even more interesting.

(Bolding mine)

So, If there's only 1 Fleet, and it's there, there can't be many ships elsewhere. I throw up my hand over it being ONLY 36 ships - But I doubt Beowulf has another formation of 36 lying around.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:I don't recall anything that said the 36 ships were Beowulf's entire wall; was that in a post somewhere? I agree with Jonathan_S to a degree, but I expect that is around half of their total.

For those arguing about the economic power of core worlds, it was in the text that Manticore surpassed old Earth only around the start of the story arc, ie., around 1900 or soon after. So old Core worlds with large populations ought to have as much income as Manticore, or almost.

Regards, Rob

Hmm, I went back and looked at the exact wording from ART and I may have been off-base.

"And [Tsang's task group] was also the next best thing to three times the total combat strength of the Beowulf System Defense Force’s thirty-six superdreadnoughts." [ART Ch14](BTW this is Tsang thinking; not an omniscient narrator)


On the face of it that does sound like it was Beowulf's entire force that Tsang saw.

Grasping as straws there may still be some other explanations:
a) Maybe Tsang's intel factored ships down for refit out of the "combat strength".
b) Maybe SLN Intel was wrong about Beowulf's total SDF strength.
c) Maybe a few of Holmon-Sanders' SD weren't Beowulfan (just to make up the numbers for any that couldn't make it).
d) For that matter, despite the Beowulfan rep to the League talking about Tsang's willingness to attack their 36 SDs we have no PoV that confirms that all 36 impeller signatures the SDN saw were real.
e) Or maybe Beowulf did pull of as massive all-effort surge to get every single one of their SDs out of the docks and ready to confront the SLN (they did have a fair bit of advanced warning after all.

We can't know for sure, but the text certainly gives the impression that they didn't have the usual 40-66% unavailable.

Why would 40-66% of their SD's be unavailable? Why would they have between 40% and 60% in yard hands unless its to repair battle damage?