Build a Fleet!

SWM wrote:How many wars on Earth have involved aircraft carriers and battleships?

How many wars in the Honorverse have involved superdreadnoughts?

Almost all wars in the Honorverse are between nations with cruisers and maybe battlecruisers. The only wars in the Honorverse that have involved superdreadnoughts are the ones between the Manticoran Alliance and Haven, and between the Grand Alliance and the Solarian League. Most of the time, you don't need superdreadnoughts unless you are going up against someone else with superdreadnoughts or you want to spread your power over a very large area.

For Battleships:

Vietnam War
Korean War
World War 2
World War 1
Russian Civil War
Balkan War
Russo-Japanese War
First Sino-Japanese War
Spanish American War

I am sure I missed a few.

For Carriers:
Iraq war 1 and 2
Afghanistan war
-Granada
-War in the Balkans(Pretty much from 1991-2000)
-Falkland War
-Vietnam
-Korea
-World War 1 and 2

I know I am definitely missing a few from this list…

And most of the time you don't need SD's because there is no one to use them against(Only a few SD armed nations). Once the LEague is done for, there would be hundreds of nations capable of having SD's, how likely would it be that the systems who used to rely on the invincible SLN for protection will be satisfied with a cruiser/destroyer fleet? How many of the Verge/Protectorates will do anything to army themselves the best they can? I mean come on, they have been introduced to the League hospitality, I'm not saying many of them would have SD's but some sectors may very well band together and form nations which will be heavily militarized even to the detriment of their standard of living.


Once the league is gone, there would be a free for all, with systems scrambling to build fleets and form nations/alliances to avoid being subjugated by someone else. Within 30 years after the war, you will see a whole bunch of nations/alliances having a bunch of other nations/alliances as enemies, each one will have SD's because you don't want to be outgunned by your enemy.

Weird Harold wrote:WWI ended with punitive reparations requirements and Crippling restrictions on industry and militaries. Which is why many refer to WWII as "Global War, Continued" or various pother wordings of the same sentiment.

So?

Weird Harold wrote: WWII ended with unconditional surrender and the Marshall Plan. There has been 70 years of relative world peace. Marred only by the occasional "proxy war" and/or "limited conflict." It ain't perfect, but it's a hell of lot better than the inter-war years and pre-WWI.

I would say that 60+ million people would disagree with you... but they died in the over 200 wars since 1945.

Weird Harold wrote: The Harrington Doctrine is Manticore's version of the Marshall Plan, except when the League Collapses, there's only going to be one "Superpower" in the galaxy -- The Grand Alliance. There won't be an Iron Curtain to divide the haves from the have-nots.

And a few thousand systems that in many cases would not want to have anything to do with the GA... so unless the GA is willing to destroy their navy and occupy them for a long long long time they will have to let them go their own way.

Jonathan_S wrote:
Beowulf is deep in the core, so likely well up on the scale for both population and industrialization. Plus even better access than Grayson to Manticore's junction and the trade benefits that brings. (Plus don't they also get preferential junction use rates?)

Still doesent change the fact that there would be hundreds if not thousands of systems with equal industrial and economic capabilities who will try to do the best they can to protect their systems which would most likely involve SD’s in their fleets.

Jonathan_S wrote: On the other hand, they had 36 SDs that we saw operating together. Unless that was an extreme (and very well timed) all-effort surge that most likely means they have more like 60-90 SDs; with the rest getting major maintenance, upgrades, crew retraining, or working up for service.

As far as I remember, the 36 SD’s were all that they had, there might be a few more(2-6) in yards but I think the limit was 36.

Jonathan_S wrote: The rough rule of thumb is that you need about 3 ships for each you keep deloyed. Though having the confrontation in the home system could let you fudge that quite a bit and surge the ships that are still working up, and possibly delay routine maintenance dockings. But it's unlikely you'd disrupt scheduled overhauls (for example).

I think the difference is that Beowulf is a single system nation and thus all of their SD’s are concentrated, they might have rushed/delayed their maintenance or there might be a few more ships in yard hands.

Jonathan_S wrote: so on the one hand, unusual economic power (even for a core world; which it itself above the galactic average) but on the other a good sized fleet of SDs for a single system in peacetime.

I dont think we can accurately asses how Beowulf compares to other Core and shell worlds... remember the Mandarins are worried because a number of Core and Shell systems have the means to build substantial fleets if they needed to, and Beowulf has only 36 while without straining their economy which means that other core nations can field similar or lesser numbers of SD’s without straining their economies.

Sigs wrote:For Battleships:

Vietnam War
Korean War
World War 2
...

For Carriers:
Iraq war 1 and 2
Afghanistan war
-Granada
-War in the Balkans(Pretty much from 1991-2000)
-Falkland War
-Vietnam
-Korea

Let's rephrase that question:

How many of the Battleships and/or Carriers used since WWII have belonged to someone other than the US or a US Allie?

How many Battleships are still in commission anywhere in the world -- not counting museum ships.

The wars you cite, since WWWII, are all the equivalent of Verge "neobarb" systems. Most of the combatants, other than the US or US Allies, fielded no more than a cruiser and even the largest armed force (Iraq, 7Mil soldiers+tanks) only fielded PT boats and coast guard cutters.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:regarding comments above by Theemile, Jonathan_S and Sigs, concerning the ability of Grayson to support a fleet.

Grayson's been on a war footing for about 600 years; and it didn't have a merchant marine to speak of. That is one reason for the differences cited in HoS (and WoH)for their fleet mix, and their ability to build so many wallers. They didn't have to build for commerce protection and all the other missions, so they have (relatively) fewer light ships.

Relax, a minor nit. Manticore's population in ca. 1900 was @3 billion; Old Earth istr is about 4 times that.

Rob

Grayson did so with only 1/4 of its population and of that 1/4, most are too young or too old... So, 1/8 of its population. No prolong.

And No, Manticore only recently surpassed 3Billion. It was not until AAC. Yes, we on the net have wondered how the population of Manticore "jumped" roughly a Billion in only 15 years... RFC said, immigration due to the war.

Weird Harold wrote:

Relax wrote:There is no such thing as "asteroid armor" deep enough against Honorverse tech.

True, but hardened installations are better than free floating pod-swarm vulnerable to proximity kills.

And these systems have been building these installations for thirty years; there are LOTS of moon and asteroids that have to be located and targeted.

I suppose there could be a planet near an asteroid field sufficient to hide some stuff.

Weird Harold wrote:

SWM wrote:There are only four reasons for any star nation to have superdreadnoughts. A) For prestige, in which case a single division is more than enough for showing off. B) Because the nation is in a war. C) Because the nation thinks it is about to be in a war. D) Because the nation wants to be either a bully or an enforcer in a large region. That's why there are only a dozen or so star nations that have even a single superdreadnought.

This ^^^^

Thirty years after the League's collapse, all Warlordism and Civil Warfare should be pretty much burned out. There should be very few major threats to peace, prosperity, and free trade.

Of course option #3 which has been proven time and time again throughout human history.

Peace via strength.

Weird Harold wrote:The wars you cite, since WWWII, are all the equivalent of Verge "neobarb" systems. Most of the combatants, other than the US or US Allies, fielded no more than a cruiser and even the largest armed force (Iraq, 7Mil soldiers+tanks) only fielded PT boats and coast guard cutters.

You mistake a historical timeline world where there has been a gigantic change from an agro society to a technology society. There are vast regions of the earth that have still not caught up to the 20th century let alone the 21st century.

The Honorverse on the other hand has been technologically plateaued. Especially in the SL, where even the concern about PROLONG is long in the past. The only "updating" they need to do is is deployed technology in war fighting material. All these worlds have access to the same information Manticore ponied together. They simply have not invested the capital to develop war fighting industries.

The Honorverse (1940ish) is much more akin to the 1400's-1700's in terms of economic parity, and ability to project power via military prowess. If you eliminated the SL as an authority head, the 1400's to 1600's period before the introduction of the rifle or exploding shells etc would be much more akin to the reality where no one knows if somone is going to show up tomorrow with a fleet.

You see what makes the most decisive advantage here on earth today is information flow. Before the telegraph, one had to keep their armies/navies close to home and would not dare expose the home base. Today? With satellites, long range RADAR installations, communications cables everywhere alone with Radio communications around the world, "sneaking" up on someone is impossible. Thus, even a slight numerical superiority or technological superiority is decisive. This most certainly is not true in the Honorverse.

So, using any example in the 20th century is blatantly absurd.

SWM wrote:How many wars on Earth have involved aircraft carriers and battleships?

Arguably quite a lot since they were invented; though often just because they were there and they didn't form a key part. (And this is exactly the kind of open ended question that can cause me to waste a couple hours on wikipedia running down details; so I see Sig partially beat me to it; but darn it after pulling this list together I'm going to post it anyway )

Attempting to categorize things as wars since 1892 [when the RN adopted the designation Battleship; a convenient break point between iron-clads and battleships)] using Wikipedia's lists of 19th, 20th, and 21st century conflicts by year.
Involved Battleships and/or carriers
1897 Greco-Turkish War (battleships only)
1898 Spanish American War (battleships only)
1899–1902 Philippine–American War (USS Oregon participated in blockades)
1899-1900 Boxer Rebellion (USS Oregon participated; peripherally)
1904-1905 Russo-Japanese War (battleships only)
1912-1912 First Balkan War (battleships only)
1914-1918 WWI (battleships and seaplane carriers)
1918 Finnish Civil War (German BBs bombarded Helsinki)
1918–1920 Estonian War of Independence (Russian Bolshevik BB engaged Royal Navy DD)
1920-1925 Rift War (fire support from España)
1937-1945 Second Sino-Japanese War (Japenese Carriers used against China)
1938-1938 Spanish Civil War (Spanish BBs)
1939-1940 Winter War (Soviet Gangut BB bombarded Finland)
1939 Invasion of Poland (battleship)
1939-1945 WWII
1946-1954 First Indochina War (French carrier Arromanches; and (loaned) USS Belleau Wood)
1950-1953 Korean War (USN carriers and BBs)
1956 Suez Crisis (French BB + British & French carriers)
1955-1975 Vietnam War (USN BBs and CVs)
1971 Bangladesh Liberation War (INS Vikrant)
1971 Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 (INS Vikrant)
1975-1990 Lebanese Civil War (USS New Jersey)
1982 Falklands War (RN Invincible-class carriers)
1990-1991 Gulf War (carriers and last use of BBs)
1991-2002 Sierra Leone Civil War (HMS Illustrious)
1992-1995 Bosnian War (carrier airstrikes and no-fly zones)
2001–present War in Afghanistan (USN carriers)
2003-2011 Iraq War (USN carriers)
2011 Libyan Civil War (Charles de Gaulle)

Wars not involving either
1894-1895 First Sino-Japanese War (only ironclad "battleships")
1896-1898 Philippine Revolution
1911-1912 Italo-Turkish War (armored cruisers; but no BBs or CVs)
1913 Second Balkan War
1917-1922 Russian Revolution
1917-1921 Ukrainian–Soviet War
1918-1919 Polish–Ukrainian War
1919 Third Anglo-Afghan War
1919–1921 Polish–Soviet War
1919-1921 Irish War of Independence
1919-1922 Turkish War of Independence (unless you count an RN BB providing transport of the last Sultan as he left Turkey)
1920 Franco-Syrian War
1920 Turkish–Armenian War
1920-1921 Franco-Turkish War
1922-1923 Irish Civil War
1926–1929 Cristero War
1927-1936 Chinese Civil War
1932-1935 Chaco War
1935 Austrian Civil War
1941 Ecuadorian–Peruvian War
1945-1949 Indonesian National Revolution
1946-1949 Greek Civil War
1947-1948 Indo-Pakistani War of 1947
1948-1949 First Arab–Israeli War
1952-1960 Mau Mau Uprising
1953–1959 Cuban Revolution
1954-1962 Algerian War
1956 Hungarian Revolution of 1956
1960-1996 Guatemalan Civil War
1960-1965 Congo Crisis
1961-1974 Portuguese Colonial War
1961-1991 Eritrean War of Independence
1962 Sino-Indian War
1962-1970 North Yemen Civil War
1962–1976 Dhofar Rebellion
1964-1974 Mozambican War of Independence
1964-1979 Rhodesian Bush War
1965 Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 (India's carrier was in dry dock)
1967 Six-Day War
1967-1970 War of Attrition
1973 Yom Kippur War
1974-1991 Ethiopian Civil War
1977-1992 Mozambican Civil War
1978-1979 Iranian Revolution
1979-1989 Soviet–Afghan War
1980-1988 Iran-Iraq War
1983-2009 Sri Lankan Civil War
1986-present Somali Civil War
1991 Ten-Day War
1991-2001 Yugoslav Wars
1994-1996 First Chechen War
1996 Operation Grapes of Wrath
1996-1997 First Congo War
1997 Albanian Rebellion of 1997
1998-2003 Second Congo War
1999 Kargil War
1999-2000 Second Chechen War
2003-present War in Darfur
2006-2009 War in Somalia
2008 Russo-Georgian War
2009-present War in Somalia
2008-2009 Gaza War
2011-present Syrian Civil War
2013-present Ukrainian crisis
2015 Yemeni Civil War (2015)


I make it 65 wars without either a battleship or a carrier, vs 27 with at least on battleship or carrier. [Edit: 29; I'd originially missed the Rift War and Spanish Civil War]

So almost 1/3rd of wars (depending on definition) since the invention of the battleship have involved one or the other. Admittedly often only because one side had them available; but still not quite the blowout I first might have thought.

Sigs wrote:For Battleships:

Vietnam War
Korean War
World War 2
World War 1
Russian Civil War
Balkan War
Russo-Japanese War
First Sino-Japanese War
Spanish American War

I am sure I missed a few.

For Carriers:
Iraq war 1 and 2
Afghanistan war
-Granada
-War in the Balkans(Pretty much from 1991-2000)
-Falkland War
-Vietnam
-Korea
-World War 1 and 2

I know I am definitely missing a few from this list…

We both did lists; but probably the more interesting question is how many wars involved BBs fighting BBs, or Carriers fighting Carriers. That's a much shorter list; in fact I think it might just be the 2 World Wars plus the Russo-Japanese war.

Weird Harold wrote:

Sigs wrote:For Battleships:

Vietnam War
Korean War
World War 2
...

For Carriers:
Iraq war 1 and 2
Afghanistan war
-Granada
-War in the Balkans(Pretty much from 1991-2000)
-Falkland War
-Vietnam
-Korea

Let's rephrase that question:

How many of the Battleships and/or Carriers used since WWII have belonged to someone other than the US or a US Allie?

How many Battleships are still in commission anywhere in the world -- not counting museum ships.

The wars you cite, since WWWII, are all the equivalent of Verge "neobarb" systems. Most of the combatants, other than the US or US Allies, fielded no more than a cruiser and even the largest armed force (Iraq, 7Mil soldiers+tanks) only fielded PT boats and coast guard cutters.

Going from my big list nobody but the US or US Allies has used a BB in anger since WW2 (US and France).
For carriers the only offensive uses I found were US, British, French, and Indian. So just the airstrikes from the INS Vikrant for non US-allied countries.
Then there are a couple other countries that have, or had, carrier that haven't used them in war.

And unless there's a museum ship that's still technically in commission I believe the Iowa-class was the last commissioned BBs; so none since the early 90s.