Build a Fleet!

I think we are all ignoring Beowulf, even though it was part of the League, it still had a fleet with 36 SD's without help from the League or the SLN. So if Beowulf can maintain a fleet of 36 SD's without putting too much strain on their economy, my guess would be that many core systems may very well have the ability to maintain similar numbers if not more.

Sigs wrote:Let's be fair though, the Grayson navy is war oriented, in peacetime they can easily cut their fleet by 60% and still have sufficient force to ensure proper defence, especially if the Haven-Manticore Alliance remains.

Removing all of their SD's and about 60% of their SD℗'s(1920 PD strength) and they will have a fleet their can support.

Actually, Grayson could easily cut their fleet by 95% in peacetime and still have sufficient force to ensure proper defence. At least. In peacetime, Grayson shouldn't need any superdreadnoughts.

There are only four reasons for any star nation to have superdreadnoughts. A) For prestige, in which case a single division is more than enough for showing off. B) Because the nation is in a war. C) Because the nation thinks it is about to be in a war. D) Because the nation wants to be either a bully or an enforcer in a large region. That's why there are only a dozen or so star nations that have even a single superdreadnought.

Relax wrote:There is no such thing as "asteroid armor" deep enough against Honorverse tech.

True, but hardened installations are better than free floating pod-swarm vulnerable to proximity kills.

And these systems have been building these installations for thirty years; there are LOTS of moon and asteroids that have to be located and targeted.

Sigs wrote:I think we are all ignoring Beowulf, even though it was part of the League, it still had a fleet with 36 SD's without help from the League or the SLN. So if Beowulf can maintain a fleet of 36 SD's without putting too much strain on their economy, my guess would be that many core systems may very well have the ability to maintain similar numbers if not more.

Beowulf had at least 36 SDs, but then they also have a wormhole terminus to (help) defend. Manticore does not garrison the Beowulf terminus because they have a treaty with Beowulf to provide the primary defense (and avoid a RMN garrison in Solarian space.)

SWM wrote:There are only four reasons for any star nation to have superdreadnoughts. A) For prestige, in which case a single division is more than enough for showing off. B) Because the nation is in a war. C) Because the nation thinks it is about to be in a war. D) Because the nation wants to be either a bully or an enforcer in a large region. That's why there are only a dozen or so star nations that have even a single superdreadnought.

This ^^^^

Thirty years after the League's collapse, all Warlordism and Civil Warfare should be pretty much burned out. There should be very few major threats to peace, prosperity, and free trade.

SWM wrote:

Sigs wrote:Let's be fair though, the Grayson navy is war oriented, in peacetime they can easily cut their fleet by 60% and still have sufficient force to ensure proper defence, especially if the Haven-Manticore Alliance remains.

Removing all of their SD's and about 60% of their SD℗'s(1920 PD strength) and they will have a fleet their can support.

Actually, Grayson could easily cut their fleet by 95% in peacetime and still have sufficient force to ensure proper defence. At least. In peacetime, Grayson shouldn't need any superdreadnoughts.

Key word being "shouldn't" which does not actually equate to will not. Having even a squadron or two of SD's gives you abilities which you will not have otherwise, one of them is keeping the capability of conducting operations with SD's.


No SD's means that next time you get involved in a war you start from scratch. Besides, having a few SD(P)'s gives your fleet flexibility, especially important for a nation that is a major player in galactic politics.

Weird Harold wrote:

SWM wrote:There are only four reasons for any star nation to have superdreadnoughts. A) For prestige, in which case a single division is more than enough for showing off. B) Because the nation is in a war. C) Because the nation thinks it is about to be in a war. D) Because the nation wants to be either a bully or an enforcer in a large region. That's why there are only a dozen or so star nations that have even a single superdreadnought.

This ^^^^

Thirty years after the League's collapse, all Warlordism and Civil Warfare should be pretty much burned out. There should be very few major threats to peace, prosperity, and free trade.

Yeah and World War One was the war to end all wars… that of course didn't work out too well.

Thirty years after the end of the GA/MA war and the collapse of the League there would be a whole lot of nations and a whole lot of rivalries by those nations. Just like after the First World War people expected long lasting peace, and after the second World War People hoped the UN would secure world peace and then after the collapse of the USSR there was the same hope etc...

Sigs wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Thirty years after the League's collapse, all Warlordism and Civil Warfare should be pretty much burned out. There should be very few major threats to peace, prosperity, and free trade.

Yeah and World War One was the war to end all wars… that of course didn't work out too well.

Thirty years after the end of the GA/MA war and the collapse of the League there would be a whole lot of nations and a whole lot of rivalries by those nations. Just like after the First World War people expected long lasting peace, and after the second World War People hoped the UN would secure world peace and then after the collapse of the USSR there was the same hope etc...

How many wars on Earth have involved aircraft carriers and battleships?

How many wars in the Honorverse have involved superdreadnoughts?

Almost all wars in the Honorverse are between nations with cruisers and maybe battlecruisers. The only wars in the Honorverse that have involved superdreadnoughts are the ones between the Manticoran Alliance and Haven, and between the Grand Alliance and the Solarian League. Most of the time, you don't need superdreadnoughts unless you are going up against someone else with superdreadnoughts or you want to spread your power over a very large area.

Sigs wrote:Yeah and World War One was the war to end all wars… that of course didn't work out too well.

WWI ended with punitive reparations requirements and Crippling restrictions on industry and militaries. Which is why many refer to WWII as "Global War, Continued" or various pother wordings of the same sentiment.

WWII ended with unconditional surrender and the Marshall Plan. There has been 70 years of relative world peace. Marred only by the occasional "proxy war" and/or "limited conflict." It ain't perfect, but it's a hell of lot better than the inter-war years and pre-WWI.

The Harrington Doctrine is Manticore's version of the Marshall Plan, except when the League Collapses, there's only going to be one "Superpower" in the galaxy -- The Grand Alliance. There won't be an Iron Curtain to divide the haves from the have-nots.

Sigs wrote:I think we are all ignoring Beowulf, even though it was part of the League, it still had a fleet with 36 SD's without help from the League or the SLN. So if Beowulf can maintain a fleet of 36 SD's without putting too much strain on their economy, my guess would be that many core systems may very well have the ability to maintain similar numbers if not more.

Beowulf is deep in the core, so likely well up on the scale for both population and industrialization. Plus even better access than Grayson to Manticore's junction and the trade benefits that brings. (Plus don't they also get preferential junction use rates?)

On the other hand, they had 36 SDs that we saw operating together. Unless that was an extreme (and very well timed) all-effort surge that most likely means they have more like 60-90 SDs; with the rest getting major maintenance, upgrades, crew retraining, or working up for service.
The rough rule of thumb is that you need about 3 ships for each you keep deloyed. Though having the confrontation in the home system could let you fudge that quite a bit and surge the ships that are still working up, and possibly delay routine maintenance dockings. But it's unlikely you'd disrupt scheduled overhauls (for example).


so on the one hand, unusual economic power (even for a core world; which it itself above the galactic average) but on the other a good sized fleet of SDs for a single system in peacetime.