Build a Fleet!

Weird Harold wrote:Since the Corvette class came up as a better description of my notional "frigate-sized LAC with a Spider Drive and armed with an SD-class Graser and Mk-16G equivalents" I probably should expound a bit more on the rough concept.

1: Spider-LACs are cheap. A system can build or buy a LOT of them, so their lack of speed is less of a disadvantage.

2: Spider-LACs don't have the armament to fill a Corvette or Destroyer's role. Despite the size of individual Spider-LACs, it takes a squadron or two to make up to sustained combat power of a DD, FG or Corvette. They're in a lot of ways, just missile pod transport engine. They are as big as they are to have room for three missile pods nestled in between their triple-keels; one per side.

3: Spider-LACs have to start from deployed positions around the system to generate intercepts on even slow merchantmen for customs inspections -- which is their primary employment.

4: Shrike/Cimmeterre class LACs are individually more capable, but are too small to mount Mk16G analogs. The extended range of the Mk16G equivalents and Stealth are sold as offsetting the lack of acceleration.

None of those solve the inherent issue that they'll be a known part of your defense force. They'll be built in orbit, spotted by merchant traffic, intelligence will uncover their existence.

Any attacker worth their weight in salt will bring a screen of impeller LACs and a lot of recon drones and push them out aggressively. Katana-type LACs would eat spider-boats for breakfast and go looking for something tougher for lunch.

The advantages of using impeller-driven LACs lie in their maneuverability - they can roll their wedges rapidly and have only gotten tougher since bow and stern walls were added. With beta-squared nodes, it can out-run - or catch! - anything with a hyperdrive. A spider vessel deprives itself of those advantages, which is why the Detweilers are implied to be massively armoured and festooned with anti-missile defenses.

Sure, a small force of spider drive vessels(of any size) could be an useful tactical weapon if employed in support of a conventional force. But IMO, they won't provide much strategical security and may even invite suspicion("Why do they need stealthy ships small enough to ride around in freighters or carriers?"). There is the historical legacy of the spider drive ships' deeds to overcome - the Yawata Strike taint.

If anything, tossing the hyper generator is a waste. Those units are perfect for commerce raiding, even against convoys with an escort or two. Wouldn't be surprised if belligerent star nations build a few just for that purpose, like how Haven used to employ specially-built Q-ships, once the secret's out.

Sigs wrote:Do you think that this will prevent all wars?

I don't. I do expect that any wars will be kept small and short.

Sigs wrote:When the first such war happens and Manticore is settled with the bill in both financial and humanitarian sense they will reassess their “commitments” if they were stupid enough to make them in the first place.

Why do you persist in believing Manticore or the GA will foot a bigger bill than their treaty partners?

Sigs wrote:So you go in and blow their industry and their navy or just their navy? Because you kill their navy and leave their government means that you essentially leave them to wait for a better chance to strike.

Hows that wait working out for Masada -- the only conquered system we've seen, so far, that hasn't recanted their aggression when conquered.

Sigs wrote:Then add in that there will likely be dozens of major nations who rise after the fall of the League who will not participate in this nodal forces and will therefore build up their own fleets, from a squadron of SD’s up to 500 or more SD’s depending on their resources which means that Manticore ends up having to put in more than 4 SD’s per 100 systems...

Sigs wrote:Not if they have to maintain hundreds of nodal forces and participate in dozens if not hundreds of wars all over the known galaxy.

You are seriously pessimistic about the future of the Honorverse, aren't you.

Sigs wrote:Not if your quantity is spread over 20 systems. If you could concentrate all of your defenses in one system or a few systems it might be true but all of your systems are on their own except for the 40 BB’s and 200 DD’s.

The 20 systems in my new star nation all got a good deal on the plans for the Huacha systems and Spider-LACs. They've been building them continuously for thirty years or so. EACH system has the Quantity to create Quality if you ccome into their range. Up to the creation of my NEW star nation, there was no consideration of not standing alone. That hasn't changed a lot, except help is now available form the other members of the NEW star nation.

Sigs wrote:IF the Nodal Force, Manticore or both are busy or otherwise unable/unwilling to assist you I can dismantle you at my pleasure without worrying about my territory being attacked because you have no mobile forces worth mentioning.

You seriously underestimate the fixed (non-hyper) defenses specified. You might not be counter-attacked immediately, but you still have to worry about the Nodal Force and/or reinforcements from treaty partners eventually getting around to you.

Sigs wrote:Why do you assume that the RF would exist after it becomes known that they are part of the MA?

Except for Darius, the silent, hidden partner in the RF, the population of the RF systems aren't part of the MAlign. Once the MAlign is neutralized and the MAlign elements of the RF leadership is purged, the twelve systems, plus anyone they've convinced to join are still going to be around. There won't be any real reason to break up the RF once the MAlign leadership is purged, so it's going to be around, and it's going to have a significant Navy.

I choose to believe that the purged RF is still going to be expansionist even if the MAlign element is purged.

Sigs wrote:

Weird Harold wrote: Your neighbors perception is very relevant if your over-sized fleet pushes them into an arms race and starts that war you're paranoid about. Especially if two or more of your neighbors of comparable economic strength band together against you.

That is assuming that my defense requirements are going to force my neighbors in to war. My philosophy is best summed up by this one statement: Speak softly and carry a big stick. I don’t start fights but I believe in having the means to end them... permanently. I will use diplomacy to prevent wars, but if someone is not quite willing to leave me alone I have my stick to beat them with.

Does the history of the Cold War not give you a clue? You're talking about a single star nation building a Navy that can take on any one of several empires and/or alliances. Why would that NOT make your neighbors paranoid; especially when you explicitly decline any military cooperation or mutual defense agreements.

People who wave big sticks encourage others to get bigger sticks -- or more sticks -- and until your reach the point of a M.A.D. detente, you risk open warfare.

munroburton wrote:None of those solve the inherent issue that they'll be a known part of your defense force. They'll be built in orbit, spotted by merchant traffic, intelligence will uncover their existence.

"With the sensor return of a grain of sand" -- It will be known they exist -- they're used as customs boats -- but finding one with hostile intent is going to be difficult.

munroburton wrote:Any attacker worth their weight in salt will bring a screen of impeller LACs and a lot of recon drones and push them out aggressively. Katana-type LACs would eat spider-boats for breakfast and go looking for something tougher for lunch.

If they can find them, and survive to get in range. Spider-LACs are over-gunned by a considerable margin and out-range Shrike, Ferret, Cimmeterre, or Katana LACs.

munroburton wrote:The advantages of using impeller-driven LACs lie in their maneuverability - they can roll their wedges rapidly and have only gotten tougher since bow and stern walls were added. With beta-squared nodes, it can out-run - or catch! - anything with a hyperdrive. A spider vessel deprives itself of those advantages, which is why the Detweilers are implied to be massively armoured and festooned with anti-missile defenses.

You obviously don't by your SDF assets from Charles or another of his ilk.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

SWM wrote:Because there were less than 70 star systems in the Silesian Confederacy. Some sectors in Silesia have only a few systems. The text gives the number, somewhere; I think it was 68, which means the Star Empire got exactly half.

I expect "the text" is HOS? The thing is, the Author doesn't define an area until he is writing a story in it. So while you get maps of the "Silesian Confederacy" (in HAE and in WoH) the only areas where he filled in much of anything were the areas patrolled by the Trojans: Posnan, Breslau, and Saginaw got the majority. I got another few system names apiece from the short stories (Ms.Middy, IFF, etc.). I think my list of stars in those three sectors comes close to all the new systems.

But there are several sectors that are mostly just blank, a canvas he didn't write on yet. Like Tumult, with the Chalice Cluster just so you know it is on the other side of forever.

Sarah; Carleton; Tumult; Silisia itself, are all SECTORS. Why bother with a sector or its government overhead if no one lives there? It doesn't make sense to me that the invisible and non-existent "sector borders" would have most of the population in just the southern tier of the entire Confederacy.

It makes a lot more sense that the author didn't define the area more accurately, when the story he was writing at that moment didn't require it. So if all the sectors were more or less the same, I'd expect around three times the number of total systems given in HOS. But what the Star Empire has in Silesia isn't defined any better because it isn't going to make any difference in the war with the League.

While it may "make a lot more sense", that is not what David Weber has said. The Silesian Confederacy had less than 70 member systems, and almost all of them were marked on the map published in the books or by Ad Astra. Those sectors that look empty are in fact pretty empty. David has also explicitly stated that Manticore got 34 star systems in the split of the Confederacy.

Weird Harold wrote:
I don't. I do expect that any wars will be kept small and short.

That would assume that all of the combatants are small nations, if a few large nations get in to wars or even a bunch of single system nations get into wars Manticore and the Nodal Forces will be busy for years.

Weird Harold wrote: Why do you persist in believing Manticore or the GA will foot a bigger bill than their treaty partners?

Because thats the only way a galaxy wide organization like this even has the slimmest of chances to succeed. If Manticore or the GA does not take a leading role in this endevour it has zero chance of success outside a few isolated pockets, even if they take a leading role though there is only a small, very small chance of success.

Weird Harold wrote: Hows that wait working out for Masada -- the only conquered system we've seen, so far, that hasn't recanted their aggression when conquered.

Isn't there a large Manticorean occupation army there? And a picket squadron? Do you think that it would be possible for Manticore to occupy dozens if not hundreds of systems for decades?

Weird Harold wrote: You are seriously pessimistic about the future of the Honorverse, aren't you .

No, I am a realist. I have studied the failures that are the UN and the League of Nations amongst many similar examples on a smaller scale over the course of human history, I don't see why in 2,000 years it would magically change when the Author has essentially painted a picture of humans with longer lifespans, better technology but facing the basic fundamental problems that we face today. As with the collapse of any major nation, few things will go smooth, many people or groups of people will want to go on their own either through alliances with neighbors or isolation. Dozens of wars that have been kept at bay by the SLN will spring up many of them would have both sides legitimate to a degree which would mean that Manticore would be in an awkward situation trying to decide who to punish when both sides can make a case. There would be many systems in a state of civil war that may very well accidentally or intentionally export their chaos to other parts. And worst of all, a large enough part of the League may very well survive and be ready for a longterm plan to regain its lost territories.

Weird Harold wrote: The 20 systems in my new star nation all got a good deal on the plans for the Huacha systems and Spider-LACs. They've been building them continuously for thirty years or so. EACH system has the Quantity to create Quality if you ccome into their range. Up to the creation of my NEW star nation, there was no consideration of not standing alone. That hasn't changed a lot, except help is now available form the other members of the NEW star nation.

Oh but your systems are alone, if the mobile portion of your defenses is destroyed, you cannot move large quantities of your defenses to reinforce threatened systems. It would be like having 20 Islands that are heavily fortified but are far enough away to not be able to support each other with reinforcements or fire support.

Weird Harold wrote: You seriously underestimate the fixed (non-hyper) defenses specified. You might not be counter-attacked immediately, but you still have to worry about the Nodal Force and/or reinforcements from treaty partners eventually getting around to you.

And do you think that will stop anyone? By the time your allies get sufficient strength to counter attack your nation would be under my control so it wont help you much...just ask Poland how it worked out for them in 1939.

Weird Harold wrote: Except for Darius, the silent, hidden partner in the RF, the population of the RF systems aren't part of the MAlign. Once the MAlign is neutralized and the MAlign elements of the RF leadership is purged, the twelve systems, plus anyone they've convinced to join are still going to be around. There won't be any real reason to break up the RF once the MAlign leadership is purged, so it's going to be around, and it's going to have a significant Navy.

So you assume that the War against the MA will be a surigal war? they will remove the leadership and leave the rest? I suspect that the GA will dismantle everything remotely related to the MA in very small pieces and many important systems might be occupied for a long time in order to make sure that they have destroyed all traces of the MA.

Weird Harold wrote:

Does the history of the Cold War not give you a clue? You're talking about a single star nation building a Navy that can take on any one of several empires and/or alliances. Why would that NOT make your neighbors paranoid; especially when you explicitly decline any military cooperation or mutual defense agreements.

People who wave big sticks encourage others to get bigger sticks -- or more sticks -- and until your reach the point of a M.A.D. detente, you risk open warfare.

I never said I will not participate in any agreements or military cooperation, I just would choose not to defend nations that are unwilling to defend themselves and will not wait for someone else to protect me.

And Yes I am talking about a single star nation building a substantial fleet, but the assumption is that my neighbors will make similar strategic assessments and build fleets to lesser or greater degree. Some will build significantly smaller fleets because of economic restrictions, others will build larger because of stronger economy. You are comparing my nation building it’s military in order to protect itself to a contest of might between what amounted to two sworn enemies.

Sigs wrote:Oh but your systems are alone, if the mobile portion of your defenses is destroyed, you cannot move large quantities of your defenses to reinforce threatened systems. It would be like having 20 Islands that are heavily fortified but are far enough away to not be able to support each other with reinforcements or fire support.

How did that work out for Japan in WW2?

Sigs wrote:

Weird Harold wrote: Hows that wait working out for Masada -- the only conquered system we've seen, so far, that hasn't recanted their aggression when conquered.

Isn't there a large Manticorean occupation army there? And a picket squadron? Do you think that it would be possible for Manticore to occupy dozens if not hundreds of systems for decades?

Everything is in orbit. AFAIK, there is no permanent presence on the planet.

Masada is an anomaly, anyway. I doubt that there is any SL Successor that is as rabidly religious that will require a permanent military picket.

Sigs wrote:

Weird Harold wrote: You are seriously pessimistic about the future of the Honorverse, aren't you .

No, I am a realist. I have studied the failures that are the UN and the League of Nations amongst many similar examples on a smaller scale over the course of human history,

Does your "realism" encompass the Marshall Plan? The Harrington Doctrine bears a very strong resemblance to the Marshall Plan. I expect similar results in converting former enemies into allies.

Sigs wrote:...There would be many systems in a state of civil war that may very well accidentally or intentionally export their chaos to other parts. And worst of all, a large enough part of the League may very well survive and be ready for a longterm plan to regain its lost territories.

There will undoubtedly be chaos and civil wars as the League collapses, but we're talking about circa thirty years after the League collapse; any such civil war should have long ago been resolved, including any exported chaos.

As for a large remnant of the League that self-identifies as "Solarian" and/or fancies itself as successor to the league, ...

Storm From the Shadows
Chapter Forty-four wrote:. . . and at the same time, we have to hit the League as a whole so hard that the fracture lines already there under the surface open right up. We have to split the League into separate sectors, into successor states, none of which have the sheer size and concentrated industrial power and manpower of the present league. Successor states that are our own size, or smaller. And we have to negotiate bilateral peace treaties with each of those successor states as they declare their willingness to opt out of the general conflict to get us to stop beating on their heads. And once we have those peace treaties, we have to not only honor them, but step beyond them. We need to use trade incentives, mutual defense pacts, educational assistance, every single thing we can think of to show them that we are—and to really be, not just pretend to be—the sort of neighbor and ally they'll want around.

IOW, any sector or group that self-identifies as "Solarian" is going to get pounded until it breaks up into small enough polities that they won't be considered threats. Then tender the carrot of trade incentives and everything else to make a revanchist war unpalatable if not unlikely.

Sigs wrote:Oh but your systems are alone, if the mobile portion of your defenses is destroyed, you cannot move large quantities of your defenses to reinforce threatened systems. ...

They've survived thirty years as isolated, independent systems. Why should they suddenly be more vulnerable because they are adding hyper-capable warships and joining with nineteen other systems with similar defenses?

Sigs wrote:And do you think that will stop anyone? By the time your allies get sufficient strength to counter attack your nation would be under my control so it wont help you much...just ask Poland how it worked out for them in 1939.

How many of your SDs are my systems worth to you? You might be able to assemble sufficient force to take one or even two systems, but I guarantee you won't have 500 SDs when you reach the high orbitals.

Sigs wrote:So you assume that the War against the MA will be a surgical war? they will remove the leadership and leave the rest?

No, I assume that the GA is NOT going to resort to Eridani Edict violations to defeat the MAlign. The only alternative to "regime change" in the RF is genocide.

Sigs wrote:I never said I will not participate in any agreements or military cooperation, I just would choose not to defend nations that are unwilling to defend themselves and will not wait for someone else to protect me.

You have strongly implied that you don't consider military cooperation as "waiting for some one else to protect me." You've said participation in a multi-national Defense Force is "defending those who aren't willing to defend themselves."

You have constantly implied that Manticore or the GA would be providing all of the "defense" with treaty partners only providing token screening elements.

How would your military cooperation differ from Manticore's? (Other than Manticore/GA having a 30 year head start on you?)

Sigs wrote:And Yes I am talking about a single star nation building a substantial fleet, but the assumption is that my neighbors will make similar strategic assessments and build fleets to lesser or greater degree. Some will build significantly smaller fleets because of economic restrictions, others will build larger because of stronger economy.

Sounds a lot like the USSR and the Warsaw Pact.

How many billions did NATO spend matching the USSR and Warsaw Pact? How many billions the they spend trying to intimidate NATO?

Sigs wrote:You are comparing my nation building it’s military in order to protect itself to a contest of might between what amounted to two sworn enemies.

Without a clear and present enemy, you'll appear to be building an invasion fleet.

The PRN and Anderman Empire built invasion fleets, the RMN built a commerce protection fleet until Haven lined up in their direction.

Your SDF isn't built for commerce protection, it's built for all-out war. Since you've built such a big hammer, I would expect your neighbors to worry that you're looking for a nail to use it on.

Weird Harold wrote:Your SDF isn't built for commerce protection, it's built for all-out war.

I remember some dude who wrote a letter about military experts who wanted to prioritize commerce protection over capital ships.

You might read it.

kzt wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Your SDF isn't built for commerce protection, it's built for all-out war.

I remember some dude who wrote a letter about military experts who wanted to prioritize commerce protection over capital ships.

You might read it.

Appropriate for Manticore in 1844 PD, not necessarily Manticore's practice in 1922 PD. The Mk-25/Apollo system defense MDM wasn't available, nor were Shrike-class LACs.

SDMDMs and LACs are available in 1922 PD and Manticore is using (and sharing) them for System Defense with far less reliance on a Wall of Battle in a defensive role. Manticore hasn't completely abandoned Capital Ships, because they still need counter-strike capability to take the war to their enemies.

My New Star Nation has brought together twenty systems that followed Manticore's 1922 strategy for System Defense -- e.g. SDMDMs and LACs in sufficient quantity to make a system more costly than all but the most determined attacker would be willing to spend.

After confederation, hyper-capable, commerce protection assets have been added. By pre-war standards, the hyper-capable BCLs would be large BB or small DNs and the Destroyers would fall somewhere between CL and CA in tonnage and at the high-end of the range in fire-power.

The BCLs come in two varieties, -- conventional and Pod-layer) both firing Mk-23/apollo analog MDMs. The DDLs are armed with Mk-16G analogs.

IOW, all of my missiles are pre-war capital grade at minimum.


So I'm not ignoring "Capital Ships" I'm just not fielding any top-of-the-line "capital ships." I may do so later if the strategic picture changes. In the meantime, I'm protecting my intra-national trade and relying on my system defense assets to defend my systems.

In short, W. H.'s position is the the entire galaxy is going to hold hands and sing kum-ba-ah

Yea, that is human nature in a nut shell.

History totally backs him up.

Dang, I need to go read more history and inform myself of how stupid all this bickering war talk is.