The Maya Crisis...

Duckk wrote:

Normally, Each DD has a squad of Marines - each CL has a Platoon, between them, they have ~1000 Marines or that of of 1.5 BCs - That's not a good planetary assault force.

Nit: Each DD has a platoon, each CL has a company.

Nit, Nit Nit...
Thanks Duckk, I has confused new mantitcore standards and old Standards.

So I'm off by 3 - but it still doesn't make a Planetary invasion force.

[SNIPPED-- a couple of odd looking quotes. I didn't write the first part--I think it was WeirdHarold, he was posting earlier.]

Theemile wrote:

I'm not certain if it's even possible to Roszak's "official" FF forces to do anything BUT commerce protection and anti-piracy duties.

Roszak's official Forces are 1 Flotilla of 18 DDs and 3 CLs.
It was never specified, but he could have taken control of the FF type ships captured at Torch, which would give him 18 DDs and 2-5 CLs. - but these would be off the books.

No, it was specified in TOF that keeping any of the StateSec vessels would attract unwelcome attention to Maya, and all of them were given to Torch. I think they are in shipyard hands somewhere in Haven, getting both repairs and updates of some sort. I don't remember now where I read that, though. CoG?

Theemile wrote:The ships he "officially" is building at Erewhon are DDs and CLs, He had 8 of each at Torch - assuming that he didn't report the losses and has built another set of each, He can report ~3 DD/CL Flotillias Officially.

{SNIP a comment on Marines.}

So what can he do with ~60 DD and CLS - not much but wait for the big dogs to show up.

Almost. Except the "big dogs" would be any BCs, and I expect they will all be grabbed by Kingsford for his commerce raiding.

His twenty official ships -the flotilla that was one ship short, and the three CL's that were the flag-deckless flagships---weren't all his official ships. He did have the 8 Marksmans, but he had 12 Warriors (4 with the in-system force). Only the DDs were supposed to be SLN, but he was assigning squadron designations to the Marksmans as if he owned them, whether they were officially SLN or not.

In MoH, Roszak said they had already more than replaced their losses; their build requirements were never given, so their strength will remain in the Tum Te Tum range. But Roszak was expecting pod BCs by October '22, so either concurrent with the end of CoG, or Real Soon Now.

As far as HQ is concerned, those are Erewhonese. But Roszak established a precedent when he borrowed ships from Erewhon to defend Torch anyway. Point being, he could position himself as having a bit more available if the Sollies stay on the Erewhonese' good side.

Besides, if a light cruiser and a couple tincans is all the naval force the bad guys have to send to a trouble spot, 60 Mayan destroyers might be enough to play in a lot of places.

Regards, Rob

Theemile wrote:[quote="Duckk" quote]Normally, Each DD has a squad of Marines - each CL has a Platoon, between them, they have ~1000 Marines or that of of 1.5 BCs - That's not a good planetary assault force.[/quote]

Nit: Each DD has a platoon, each CL has a company.[/quote]

Nit, Nit Nit...
Thanks Duckk, I has confused new mantitcore standards and old Standards.

So I'm off by 3 - but it still doesn't make a Planetary invasion force.[/quote]

Under the RMN's new builds DD's have no marines.

IIRC under the old rules it was like this.

DD 1 platoon
CL 1 company
CA 1 battalion of 3 companies
BC 1 battalion of 4 companies
DN/SD 1 battalion with assault company plus assault shuttle's

New
DD none
CL 1 platoon
CA 1 company
BC 2 companies
CLAC 1 company, can carry full battalion
SD(P) 1 battalion

Yeah, but the context was that of Roszak's SLN ships, not RMN ships.

snipped the initial quotes

saber964 wrote:
Under the RMN's new builds DD's have no marines.

IIRC under the old rules it was like this.

DD 1 platoon
CL 1 company
CA 1 battalion of 3 companies
BC 1 battalion of 4 companies
DN/SD 1 battalion with assault company plus assault shuttle's

New
DD none
CL 1 platoon
CA 1 company
BC 2 companies
e
SD(P) 1 battalion

bold added

Duckk commented on the fact we were discussing foreign navies. There is still a small nit, though. Wolfhound construction was slowed, not halted.

That current DD classes have no marines isn't entirely true. The Rolands, where we have been observing the action, don't.

The Wolfhounds were designed to replace the older ships for general duties of commerce protection and secondary (non-Fleet) roles. While they were designed in the Janacek Admiralty, the same designers were also working on the Saganami B/C, Agamemnon, Nike, and Invictus. They likely would have been fielded several years earlier, if it wasn't for Janacek.

RFC has made the point that the Janacek Admiralty didn't have as much control over BuShips as they might have wanted. The Wolfhound/Avalon design wasn't built, apparently, until the emergency of 1918-19 and started commissioning at that time; doesn't mean they are a bad design. Just very overdue.

Wolfhounds are a functional lighter version of the Avalons, which HoS indicates are very well regarded by the WH admiralty. Avalons were NOT replaced by a CL version of Roland. I think there was a reason for that. The RMN may decide soon to build nothing but CLs, but in secondary zones, they don't need all the firepower of DDMs; if Foraker is already upgrading to the Erewhonese tech versions, Haven will be able to build and ammunition light ships both for their own use and for export to friendly and/or neutral governments.

One of the statements in HoS in the section on the Wolfhounds said the Admiralty (in 1921) had a plan to replace older destroyers with Wolfhounds, that was slowed down (not stalled entirely). The reversed their planned build numbers in the face of hostilities, because of the sims showing how much more capable the Rolands would be in Fleet actions. But the Wolfhound wasn't discarded entirely.
As of 1921, anyway.

The Wolfhounds are a lot better than older light cruisers, and secondary duties (like commerce protection, scouting and surveillance, etc) could be done without compromising the ability of the destroyer for the secondary missions of small ships as much as a Roland does. For instance, I expect the difference in crew sizes (Roland given as less than 75, the Wolfhound given as 84) is possibly a squad of Marines.

Missile defense on the Avalons and Wolfhounds uses the same equipment as the Rolands, so a DDM attack wouldn't necessarily cause them to lose; a lot depends on the range at the start of any engagement. And, with the off-bore launchers firing every 8 seconds, a Wolfhound isn't as outgunned in a shorter range conflict as another nation's DD class would be. In energy range, the advantage goes to the Wolfhounds' grasers.

Erewhon's Warrior class is similar in size, but uses the Culverin/Valiant ammunition, and lack off-bore capability. I haven't seen any Havenite DD specs in the second round, but they aren't likely to be better than the Warrior.

Even leaving the "current" designs out of the argument, I expect the next design of "light warship" -- whatever it is-- will include marines. The RMN has the interim of the infrastructure rebuild to build the officer corps/Marine force to any level they require, and the new population assets to do it; manning will be less of an issue in the years ahead.

Rob

Roszak does not appear to have been being tasked to use the FF ships under his control to do any actual "enforcement" or active extension of "protection" to systems in the Maya area. What he did do was actively help defend Torch.

Baragos also does not seem to be presented as having the usual OFS/local dictator relationships with anybody. That doesn't mean that he doesn't, it just means that we aren't being shown any. On the other hand, he may have been very involved in keeping actual good relations with the non-dictator/non Transtellar instituted governments of the systems in Maya's
area of oversight. He may have even made progress at keeping the major abuses of the OFS/Transtellar mode of operation down to a low roar.

Recall that Zoszak and his Intelegence officer discussed and seemed to be scheduling the elimination of a new SLN/FF LT. who was demonstrating behavior of being the worst kind OFS/FF croney working on family connections and influence. Of course that was the very kind of thing that could expose the SEPOY operation but it also fit with the graft and corruption that leads to all sorts of BAD THINGS and turn even healthy system governments and economies into tyrant held empires and Transtellars satrapies. Those things are not conducive to the actual healthy and functional system adminstration (for the benefit of the majority of the occupants of the same systems) of the Maya Sector that Baragos wants.

Brigade XO wrote:Roszak does not appear to have been being tasked to use the FF ships under his control to do any actual "enforcement" or active extension of "protection" to systems in the Maya area. What he did do was actively help defend Torch.

Baragos also does not seem to be presented as having the usual OFS/local dictator relationships with anybody. That doesn't mean that he doesn't, it just means that we aren't being shown any. On the other hand, he may have been very involved in keeping actual good relations with the non-dictator/non Transtellar instituted governments of the systems in Maya's
area of oversight. He may have even made progress at keeping the major abuses of the OFS/Transtellar mode of operation down to a low roar.

Recall that Zoszak and his Intelegence officer discussed and seemed to be scheduling the elimination of a new SLN/FF LT. who was demonstrating behavior of being the worst kind OFS/FF croney working on family connections and influence. Of course that was the very kind of thing that could expose the SEPOY operation but it also fit with the graft and corruption that leads to all sorts of BAD THINGS and turn even healthy system governments and economies into tyrant held empires and Transtellars satrapies. Those things are not conducive to the actual healthy and functional system adminstration (for the benefit of the majority of the occupants of the same systems) of the Maya Sector that Baragos wants.

You must have missed a bit--any tasking for Roszak in the face of insurections/revolts was predicated on MAlign agents igniting those revolts (future tense, and totally wishful thinking), and the inability of the other less-prepared (or more revolting ) sector commissioners to deal with the problems.

It was, sorta, a personal wishlist, not something I expect to see.

Roszak and Watanaponse(sp?) discussed the elimination of an officer (Lt Mansfield?) foisted on them (when is not known) by the late Lt Governor Casseti as a spy; he wasn't a new guy, he was a snake looking for a new patron in Fleet HQ.

Barregos not only has his detachment enforcing the Cherwell Convention (one reason Jeremy X was living there) but also enforcing the Leagues' actual laws and regulations regarding commerce. I think that is why Maya is so much better off that other sectors--and why he is so disliked by the other commissioners.

Regards,

Rob