Build a Fleet!

Regarding building hyper-capable corvettes (or the concept)

McKeon during the later end of Honor of the Queen, paraphrased slightly wrote:By the time you have the technology to build the tractors, you can build better ships and dont need the LACs

I recall those TL-corvettes were roughly an old battlecruiser chopped in half, but I don't have my House of Steel to check the oldest ships that were listed there.

Checking the wiki, the oldest page of RMN BC is the Redoubtable (1786 PD, 686m length), and the oldest RMN FG is the Noblesse (1819 PD, 351m length). That's just about exactly the same size ratio of a corvette being loosely 50% of a BC.

That makes a corvette simply a sublight DD. Dispatch boats aren't much smaller than a DD and they carry zero weapons for the hyperdrive. Corvette being the same size as both DD's and DB's, there's simply no room to cram a hyper drive in and still be useful. It'll carry slightly more weapons for displacement, but the drawback in mobility (both in sublight and lack of hyper) makes either LACs or full DD's a better choice.

Theemile wrote:
Tom Pope weighed in on it when I asked him awhile back. Corvettes are essentially Frigate/DD sized Sublight ships with DD/CL weapons fits. It made more sense in Travis Long's day than today (Due to size of the weapons of the day).

They are used sparingly today in certain situations - The Dillingham cartel had a pair protecting it's operations in Walther IIRC, allowing them to Skirt the Silensian rule about private Hypercombatants. It was theorized (but never answered), that those Corvettes were actually standard FFs or DDs with their HyperGenerators pulled to satiate the Silensian Rule without being a "one-off" design.

That sounds like a fair thing actually. Corvette's being a way to nip around legalities of having privately owned hyper-capable combatants. Also a fair thing that they were full-up DD's that hypered in, and then had their hyper-generators removed, or had the advanced form of a tag-out emplaced to render the hyperdrive unusable (although possibly reversible for when the cartel leaves)

Somtaaw wrote:Regarding building hyper-capable corvettes (or the concept)

McKeon during the later end of Honor of the Queen, paraphrased slightly wrote:By the time you have the technology to build the tractors, you can build better ships and dont need the LACs

I recall those TL-corvettes were roughly an old battlecruiser chopped in half, but I don't have my House of Steel to check the oldest ships that were listed there.

Checking the wiki, the oldest page of RMN BC is the Redoubtable (1786 PD, 686m length), and the oldest RMN FG is the Noblesse (1819 PD, 351m length). That's just about exactly the same size ratio of a corvette being loosely 50% of a BC.

That makes a corvette simply a sublight DD. Dispatch boats aren't much smaller than a DD and they carry zero weapons for the hyperdrive. Corvette being the same size as both DD's and DB's, there's simply no room to cram a hyper drive in and still be useful. It'll carry slightly more weapons for displacement, but the drawback in mobility (both in sublight and lack of hyper) makes either LACs or full DD's a better choice.

Your're thinking the 2 cutters from the 1st Manticore Ascendant book made from 1 Victory class BC in the early 1600s. There were 7 corvettes bought by Manticore and shipped to the star kingdom after it was founded. <SNERK warning>








These were mentioned in the Beginnings anthology, but are discussed in detail in the 2nd Manticore Ascendant book.

Theemile wrote:
Your're thinking the 2 cutters from the 1st Manticore Ascendant book. There were 7 corvettes bought by Manticore and shipped to the star kingdom after it was founded.

I'd thought those were dubbed officially as corvettes and not cutters? in the Honor-era of the RMN, even a piddly little Light Cruiser Fearless, sent to Basilisk had a cutter that Honor used to meet with Young. In addition to the multiple pinnaces she had embarked (deployed mostly to the Junction patrol)

That would indicate a very tiny ship, not much larger than a shuttle, but smaller than a pinnace.

The Travis Long corvettes, had crews of approximately 100-200 I believe, I'd have to go flip through the book again. And I definitely recall them being one of their old battlecruisers, sawn in half, a few things moved and using the single fusion core in each half to provide power to the single impeller ring each half had.... although thinking about it, one half of each "corvetter" pair, kept the hyper-drive (and the one that fell apart with Long's friends) was the half that didn't have the hyperdrive.

How big is a coast guard cutter?

There is no ship class police that will arrest you if you choose to call a ship of a type different than what other people would call it.

Well a navy wouldn't change designations so drastically I'd think. If they called the chopped-up battlecruiser hybrid a cutter, they wouldn't call the captain's "shuttle with delusions of grandeur" a cutter as well.

More for clarity's sake than anything. Like how these forums have debated whether the late-gen RMN destroyers that are larger than SLN light cruisers are still officially destroyers. Battlecruisers being larger than pre-war Havenite battleships are still designated battlecruisers.

Somtaaw wrote:Well a navy wouldn't change designations so drastically I'd think. If they called the chopped-up battlecruiser hybrid a cutter, they wouldn't call the captain's "shuttle with delusions of grandeur" a cutter as well.

More for clarity's sake than anything. Like how these forums have debated whether the late-gen RMN destroyers that are larger than SLN light cruisers are still officially destroyers. Battlecruisers being larger than pre-war Havenite battleships are still designated battlecruisers.

So you think navies haven't changed designations that drastically in history? How about the changing definitions of frigates over the last several centuries. Maybe back then, a cutter was more akin to a coast guard cutter than to a ship's auxiliary boat.

Weird Harold wrote: How many will they keep in service when they achieve the Harrington goal of Peace Through
Trade?

About 3000 SD’s because according to your theory they will be involved in a new war every other day... When you have hundreds or thousands of Mutual Defense treaties you end up having to uphold your side of the treaty regularly, you have to destroy someone’s fleet and then occupy their planets

Weird Harold wrote: 160 SDs (20x8-ship squadrons) might be a reasonable SDF If you're close enough to be worried about the RF or Anderman Empire, but those 350 SDs in reserve are going to be exactly as useful as the SLN reserve has proven to be. Maintaining compatibility with your reserve is going to inhibit staying state-of-the-art in your active fleet -- which is going to be an ineffective peacetime navy through lack of combat experience, anyway.

The SLN’s regular and reserve SD’s are garbage because of problems that other, smaller nations who don't think they are god’s gift to the universe wont have to face... at least not for long. Updating your reserve when you update your regular units keeps them all at the same level...

But more importantly, whatever problems me and my 500 SD’s face, they would not be anywhere near as bad as the once you and your 0 SD’s face should a war arise, in My scenario the nation will have the crew’s, the expertise, yards and experience. In your scenario you will start from scratch, you would have to double, triple or quadruple your manpower just to get a small number of SD’s in service and thats assuming you see the war coming well in advance, and you will have to find someone willing to sell SD’s to you because if you are arming up, chances are others are as well and there is only so much ship yard space available.

And as for the threat, the assumption is that the League will fracture in to dozens of moderate to large sections and hundreds of smaller nations as well, you need a fleet that is versatile and can deal with anything that comes it’s way.

Weird Harold wrote: You haven't defined any concrete threat to your systems to encourage your taxpayers to pump money into 350 holes in space. You apparently have no mutual defense treaties with anyone -- i.e. you don't care about your trading partners' survival.

I would make alliances based on my national interests. And besides, I don't need a concrete threat, because if you are waiting for the concrete threat to arm yourself then it is too late. Just like having a fire department, you don't wait until there is a concrete threat(a fire), you build because you know there is a chance something will happen. It basically comes down to this, each system would be responsible for 22-23 SD’s, even though each of my dozen heavily industrialized systems could easily maintain 10 times that number without breaking a sweat. If an aggressor looks at my hypothetical nation and your hypothetical nation, who do you think he will invade even if mine is the juicier target? Why you ask? Because you cannot fight back and you have 20 systems that are essentially on their own. I on the other hand can bring the war to my enemy with my BB’s and SD’s as well as defend my home. The reward of taking over my territory might be bigger, but the risk is exponentially bigger, because he may win, but at what cost? But he may also lose, because I can bring the war to him and his people. With you though, it would be a case of attacking until your mobile “fleet” is decimated and take out your systems one by one without you being able to do a thing about it.

Weird Harold wrote: You apparently don't care about how your naval strength will be perceived by your neighbors -- you're apparently content to trigger and fuel an arms race with neighboring systems.

My neighbors perception would not save me in a war, therefore it is irrelevant.

Weird Harold wrote: There's no doubt that you could build a multi-trillion dollar fleet, I'm just having trouble understanding why you need one and how you've convinced your democracy to pay for it. A nebulous, "Defence [sic] from people who want what I have," wouldn't make me vote for the excess military you want.

The citizens will know that they are secure, knowing that their fleet has the ability to do anti-piracy in sectors that I need for trade(Like the RMN did in Silesia), defend them from an aggressive neighbors, protect allies, keep trade routes open and generally protect the nation. There would be no question that in times of war the fleet can reinforce any system and protect any and all systems, whereas you are depending on fortified systems that are essentially isolated... Basically it is 20 independent systems with their own fixed defenses that cannot do a thing plus some ~220 DDs and ~40 BB’s as a unified force, a force that will be swept away by anyone of equal industrial and economic capability. Once that is accomplished each system will rush to build its own military capabilities while awaiting the enemy to crash through their defenses.

Weird Harold wrote:

kzt wrote:You might ask France and Germany in 1917 about how wonderful mutual defense treaties are. They are not the panacea you seems to think they are.

'Tis not that I think they are a panacea, but that Honor Harrington thinks they are essential.

WWI was a very good example of how a web of bilateral mutual defense treaties can be a bad thing. That doesn't necessarily mean that mutual defense is an invalid concept, it just means that Europe in the early 20th century had a bit of trouble defining "defense" and distinguishing it from "aggression."

As opposed to now? Or 1,000 years from now? or 1,000 years ago?

Somtaaw wrote:

Theemile wrote:
Your're thinking the 2 cutters from the 1st Manticore Ascendant book. There were 7 corvettes bought by Manticore and shipped to the star kingdom after it was founded.

I'd thought those were dubbed officially as corvettes and not cutters? in the Honor-era of the RMN, even a piddly little Light Cruiser Fearless, sent to Basilisk had a cutter that Honor used to meet with Young. In addition to the multiple pinnaces she had embarked (deployed mostly to the Junction patrol)

That would indicate a very tiny ship, not much larger than a shuttle, but smaller than a pinnace.

The Travis Long corvettes, had crews of approximately 100-200 I believe, I'd have to go flip through the book again. And I definitely recall them being one of their old battlecruisers, sawn in half, a few things moved and using the single fusion core in each half to provide power to the single impeller ring each half had.... although thinking about it, one half of each "corvetter" pair, kept the hyper-drive (and the one that fell apart with Long's friends) was the half that didn't have the hyperdrive.

My mistake - checking the text they called the "SLOOPS" not cutters. The first 2 were Phobos and Diemos, taken from the Victory Class BC, Mars. (Which was about the size of Roland DD.)