Build a Fleet!

Relax wrote:Believing there is going to be an MDF is utopian panacea. For such a force to be present, you have to believe that the entire galaxy knuckles under and kowtows to Manticore/Haven/GA.

Yea, that is not going to happen.

Sort of like Europe knuckled under the US to participate in NATO? (Or the Soviet Bloc forming the Warsaw Pact?)

Note, my fledgling 20 Star confederation is NOT a member of the MDF but expects an invitation to join.

Manticore has stated an intent to make and honor mutual defense treaties and has demonstrated "on-screen" how they will fulfill those treaties with Marsh, Zanzibar, and Alizon. Erewhon presents a different picture of how long a mutual defense treaty lasts...

But I didn't specify who the "senior partner" in my notional Nodal MDF was. It is an entity big enough to provide the SDs and other heavy formations necessary to effectively suppress aggression. Grayson, Haven or the Anderman Empire could fill the role as well as Manticore independent of a GA participation. Any of the notional "12 systems with SDFs containing SDs" could form the core of a Mutual Defense Treaty Organization. That is basically the stated method the Renaissance Factor intends to use to draw new members, although I've specifically excluded the RF from immediate consideration.

I expect Manticore, and by extension the GA, to achieve about 75%-80% success in implementing the Harrington Doctrine. That implies the capability to honor 1500-1600 mutual defense treaties; something that would be unsustainable on a unilateral basis and not what Manticore's demonstrated treaty relationships would suggest. That means a Marsh style multi-national nodal defense force or something similar.

They whine about how they can't get the manpower to support the force need to provide a core fleet and security to 50 planets. You propose to expand this to 3000+ planets. which huge nodal forces, so how exactly do you think this will work out?

Note that in WW2 we had 12 million people out of 140 million total people, and we then dropped to 2.1 million of 237 million in 1985. You instead seem to suggest that Manticore celebrate the new peace by increasing their military by at least 1000%. I suggest that anyone who proposed this as a plan in Manticore will have a very short career.

Weird Harold wrote:Who would show up with a squadron of SDs?

Anyone who wants to build an empire... anyone of the countless nations that will spring up from the ashes of the League... 2,000 systems and you hold only 20 what makes you think no other nations will exist.

Weird Harold wrote:
My initial strategic assessment was that the only SDs in the sector belong to the Nodal MDF. Are you suggesting that I should be concerned about the MDF turning Conquistador?

Are you in a sector that is heavily industrialized or are you in a verge sector that doesn't have have a pot to piss in? How much time and resources would it take for you to acquire SD’s and train crews for them? What about expanding the rest of your fleet? What happens if someone initiates a secret build up while the capital ships attached to the local nodal force are tasked somewhere else or withdrawn home.

Weird Harold wrote: An unstated assumption is that I have a competent ONI and other intelligence assets. I assume that I will have adequate warning of any neighbors building SDs to re-evaluate and build or buy sufficient additional strength.

How’s that working for Manticore and Beowulf? They seem to have competent intelligence agencies and it sure as hell didn’t help them any in regards to the MA. Intelligence is great, but not building adequate defenses on the assumption that you will spot a potential threat well ahead so as to build up sufficient forces to counter it. With the deployment you describe, an enemy wont even need that much of a difference to defeat you.

Weird Harold wrote:
You are quick to discount the non-hyper assets as worthless. ONE Huacha Super-pod can launch and control 1000 FTL controlled SD-MDM; there are more than one Huacha in each system.

Stationary defenses are great but they all have weaknesses, what happens when your individual non-hyper defenses are destroyed or weakened? How do you reinforce a system?

BTW what is a Huacha Super-pod.

Weird Harold wrote:
I didn't specify how many Spider-LACs were in each system; I did specify that each S-LAC had the sensor return of a grain of sand and that they are armed with Mk16G equivalents (capital-weight warheads on a cruiser-weight missile.)

So basically you are trying to say that your LAC’s would be the equivalent of Capital ships? Why not build Cruisers that have the capability to take on Ships of the Wall and be done with it?

Weird Harold wrote: Anyone attempting to conquer one of my systems had better bring his whole Navy and I won't NEED to call in reinforcements until he does. A competent ONI and other intelligence assets will let me know as soon as anyone with a Navy big enough to worry about is feeling aggressive.

Yes, because that has always worked out throughout history... Competent intelligence agencies have never dropped the ball... intelligence agencies do not have crystal balls to predict the future, they fail you have no safety net, you are done for.

Weird Harold wrote:If others have the same idea as me, I have nothing to worry about -- I have no Conquistador aspirations so someone with the same ideas wouldn't either. I don't need more force projection than is required to deal with a pirates nest or slaver depot -- whether unilaterally or as a component of the Nodal MDF.

Others does not equal to everyone, so the one nation with SD’s has an edge on everyone else, and since you are coming up with super weapons, so can they. Haven build Bolthole right under Manticore’s nose long before Highridge what makes you think that your Intelligence agencies would be right 100% of the time?

Weird Harold wrote:Sort of like Europe knuckled under the US to participate in NATO? (Or the Soviet Bloc forming the Warsaw Pact?)

Notice how Europe is only a small part of the world? What you are suggesting is that those MDF’s would encompass most if not all of human occupied space... besides its not like Europe had much of a choice, they either allied with the US or started working on their Russian.

Weird Harold wrote:
Note, my fledgling 20 Star confederation is NOT a member of the MDF but expects an invitation to join.

Yeah and I expect Meghan Fox to call me any minute now but it just might not work out quite like that.

Weird Harold wrote:Manticore has stated an intent to make and honor mutual defense treaties and has demonstrated "on-screen" how they will fulfill those treaties with Marsh, Zanzibar, and Alizon. Erewhon presents a different picture of how long a mutual defense treaty lasts...

So Manticore has pledged to take over the role of the League? Only instead of just forcing the verge to go along with them, they would be forcing all of the league... way to not make any enemies. All of those treaties were seen as beneficial to the national interests of Manticore, sort of like NATO was beneficial to the US AND Europe, and how the Warsaw Pact was Beneficial to the USSR AND the eastern bloc.

Weird Harold wrote:I expect Manticore, and by extension the GA, to achieve about 75%-80% success in implementing the Harrington Doctrine. That implies the capability to honor 1500-1600 mutual defense treaties; something that would be unsustainable on a unilateral basis and not what Manticore's demonstrated treaty relationships would suggest. That means a Marsh style multi-national nodal defense force or something similar.

So basically hundreds of nations that will expect Manticore or the GA to foot the bill for their defense? How do you convince the Tax Payers of the GA to swallow that? How long does this arrangement last?

Sigs wrote:So basically hundreds of nations that will expect Manticore or the GA to foot the bill for their defense? How do you convince the Tax Payers of the GA to swallow that? How long does this arrangement last?

IIRC, Marsh provides a significant, and growing, portion of Sidemore Station's ships. That's not exactly "Manticore footing the bill."

Manticore and/or the GA can't foot the bill for a Mutual Defense Force unilaterally, but it can provide some of its existing SD complement or other ships and provide slots at Saganami for allied officers. They might even make a profit on the officer training.

Sigs wrote:Anyone who wants to build an empire... anyone of the countless nations that will spring up from the ashes of the League... 2,000 systems and you hold only 20 what makes you think no other nations will exist.

What gave you the idea that I think no other nations exist? You're ignoring the strategic assessment part of building a fleet: I determined as step one that the only potential threat was the RF and they were 20-30 years away, on the far side of the former League. There are no aggressive and/or expansionist empires in this sector.

Sigs wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:
My initial strategic assessment was that the only SDs in the sector belong to the Nodal MDF. Are you suggesting that I should be concerned about the MDF turning Conquistador?

Are you in a sector that is heavily industrialized or are you in a verge sector that doesn't have have a pot to piss in?

Irrelevant. There are no aggressive or expansionist systems in the sector and the only SDs belong to the MDF. There are at least 12 successor states that commissioned SDs before the League Collapsed; a large percentage of those 12, if not all, belong to the RF -- an the far side of the former League territory.

Sigs wrote:How much time and resources would it take for you to acquire SD’s and train crews for them? What about expanding the rest of your fleet? What happens if someone initiates a secret build up while the capital ships attached to the local nodal force are tasked somewhere else or withdrawn home.

"Time and resources" are the reason I don't propose any SDs. The initial Strategic Assessment was that there was nothing for them to do. Expending time and resources on building, crewing, and maintaining them is more than my taxpayers are willing to put up with.

Sigs wrote:How’s that working for Manticore and Beowulf? They seem to have competent intelligence agencies and it sure as hell didn’t help them any in regards to the MA.

Exactly what would have helped Manticore and Grayson detect and thwart Oyster Bay? Even if they knew it was coming they didn't have the technology to prevent it.

Sigs wrote:Stationary defenses are great but they all have weaknesses, what happens when your individual non-hyper defenses are destroyed or weakened? How do you reinforce a system?

As long as your defenses are known, an enemy can find a way to nullify them. Each of the 20 member systems has two BCL(p) tasked as a Quick Reaction Force asset. That's 40 podlayers with Apollo/Mk23E equivalent pods. A significant reinforcement.

Sigs wrote:BTW what is a Huacha Super-pod.

The primarily moon/asteroid based system defense missile system capable of firing and controlling up to 1,000 four-stage multi-drive/multi-stage missiles with FTL receivers for Fire-control. It's a variation on Apollo/Mycroft/System Defense Pods, The system can be deployed aboard a habitat or fort was well as moon/asteroid basing, although at greater expense and vulnerability.

Sigs wrote:So basically you are trying to say that your LAC’s would be the equivalent of Capital ships? Why not build Cruisers that have the capability to take on Ships of the Wall and be done with it?

Time and resources. Individually, a Spider-LAC is no match for anything bigger than a frigate or pre-havenite-war destroyer. A full wing of Spider-LACs might reasonably take on a BCL. A system's worth of Spider-LACs backed by Huacha superpods can handle any force known to exist in my sector. That probably includes the Nodal MDF force, but when the Hyper-capable assets for the system are considered, it definitely includes the probable division of SD(p) in the Nodal MDF.

Even a squadron of over-sized Spider Drive LAC that can launch Mk16G equivalents is cheaper than a BCL or BCL(p). A flotilla of Spider-LACs is more useful in peacetime and, in sufficient numbers, is less vulnerable than a couple pairs of BCLs.

Sigs wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Sigs: Where would you go to get the ships of the wall if others have the same idea as you?

If others have the same idea as me, I have nothing to worry about ...

Others does not equal to everyone, so the one nation with SD’s has an edge on everyone else, and since you are coming up with super weapons, so can they.

You are the one who made the comment about "others" -- If they think like me, they don't have any SDs so I don't need to defend against them. If they think like me, they won't attack me with whatever they have, and I don't need to build an invincible Navy.

Sigs wrote:Haven build Bolthole right under Manticore’s nose long before Highridge what makes you think that your Intelligence agencies would be right 100% of the time?

It would be unrealistic to expect more than competence from my Intelligence agencies. Bolthole was essentially irrelevant because even Janacek's ONI knew that Haven was hostile. High Ridge ignored that minor detail, and gutted Manticore's intelligence agencies and military. Had that not happened, Bolthole would have been no more than an interesting side-note.

There was plenty of information available to intelligence agencies that were still competent, and those who listened to them averted total disaster.

I can't afford to build a fleet to counter threats that only exist as remote possibilities. I can't afford to waste time and resources building a bigger fleet than I need and can convince my taxpayer to foot the bill for.

Weird Harold wrote:

Sigs wrote:BTW what is a Huacha Super-pod.

The primarily moon/asteroid based system defense missile system capable of firing and controlling up to 1,000 four-stage multi-drive/multi-stage missiles with FTL receivers for Fire-control. It's a variation on Apollo/Mycroft/System Defense Pods, The system can be deployed aboard a habitat or fort was well as moon/asteroid basing, although at greater expense and vulnerability.

"I wave my magic wand..."

kzt wrote:"I wave my magic wand..."

A logical extension of the Magic Wand RFC waved.

If you make a look at the current Military Research you will see, that some Army´s spent a lot of money into automated vehicles.

Just wondering, if someone in the Honorverse will make the same mistake....

Weird Harold wrote:

Sigs wrote:So basically hundreds of nations that will expect Manticore or the GA to foot the bill for their defense? How do you convince the Tax Payers of the GA to swallow that? How long does this arrangement last?

IIRC, Marsh provides a significant, and growing, portion of Sidemore Station's ships. That's not exactly "Manticore footing the bill."

Who provides the SD's? Because forcing Manticore or the GA to field thousands of SD's in peacetime for the sake of someone else's defence is a no go unless there is a direct national interest for them to defend that nation. And what exactly is significant and growing mean? Is it significant from the point of Sidemore or Manticore? Because there would be a signifiant difference.


If all of the Ships of the wall are provided that means that Manticore/GA/Haven is footing the bill even if local nations are throwing in some screen.