Build a Fleet!

BCL as top unit in a multi star system is dreaming? Why?

When someone attacks, they will ~~~ know what your defenses are. They will bring enough to squash your local defenses. You as a multi star system entity now need to go back in and kick their asses. BCL/BCP most certainly are NOT cut out to do this.

This requires ships able to withstand more hits, and a force mix able to attack a defended system. Why? Because as soon as they take your star system they are now going to deploy a bazillion pods along with the C&C hardware to use said pods and KEEP said system.

Therefore, YOU, the defender, now must become the attacker and not only take on their predeployed pods, but also their SHIPS as well. This most certainly is NOT a BCL's bailiwick.

You the defender cannot be strong enough everywhere. Therefore your knuckleduster is a strong force able to move between systems and either retake your beleaguered system, or advance on the attackers systems and demolish him in return while he is gallivanting in your systems playing conquistador.

Sorry, that means SDP/CLAC's and lots of them.

Relax wrote:Sorry, that means SDP/CLAC's and lots of them.

Yep, I sure hope that Mutual Defense Force the GA organized has enough of them. Their presence was part of my strategic assessment.

Relax wrote:
That is because you are ignoring my point.

Basic infrastructure for human comfort, food, clothing, housing, transportation, communications, require fewer workers as a percentage of the population serviced as technology advances.

Likewise you ignore my point that a machine today, requires less maintenance than a machine of yesterday and that a machine tomorrow will likewise require less maintenance than today because MATERIAL science advances.

So, if you admit that the two above points are valid, then one must confront the issue that a higher percentage of the population is essentially NOT NEEDED for sustaining infrastructure and increase its size and therefore available for other pursuits. Not that they are unemployed(previously this was a poor choice of words), but not needed for comfortable living.

And you are ignoring that we are not talking about ancient Sparta where the male population is bred to be a soldier and the state is geared to war... Once you go about having your forces at 1% or more of your population you better have a very good reason to have such a high level and as Manticore’s situation presents you better be willing to accept deficit spending.

If only 25% of your population works in the essential field(Food production, resource gathering etc...) the other 75% still have an essential job, it is to be a tax payer. You go buy a beer you get taxed, you buy a car you get taxed, you by food you get taxed... you get the point.


As for not being necessary for conformable living, where do you think the other 75% of the population works? or at least a large section of those 75% in the very sector that provides the luxury goods and services, start cutting in to that and see how determined the people are to support the troops.

So basically it boils down to this, they may not work in the essential fields, but when it comes down to it, they are tax payers and that is an essential part of the government in and of itself.

My problem does not stem from wether Manticore can or cannot raise a force of 5%,6% or even 10% of its population. My problem is that the SEM cannot raise 1% of its population let alone more.

Because we are talking about just over 3 billion people in the old SKM who are highly educated and productive individuals, if the need should arise you can field 2% or 3% or even 5% of the population for the military but the problems come in when you start suggesting that the population of Talbott and Silesia should be counted and add 1% of that. According to the Honorverse wikipedia the SEM has 27 billion subject, subtract the over 3 billion from the old Star Kingdom and you are left with somewhere in the neighborhood of 24 billion.

So here is my problem, of those 24 billion people, anyone over the age of 25 is not a candidate for prolong, which means that they have anywhere from a few years on the upper end of the spectrum to 5 or 6 decades. How many would sign up for 10-15 year contracts including the longer courses required due to their lower education level? Of those who are willing, how many can meet the standard? How many are physically fit, or mentally capable to meet the requirements for military service? And what level of patriotism is there in them? They didn't join the SKM because they loved it so much, they joined because their only alternative was the League and FF.

Relax wrote:Many will decide that eternal school is a great way to go as they know that if they graduate there are very few jobs that actually allow them to use their accumulated skills. Look at today and the percentage of young people getting utterly useless degrees(hostess degrees ) that a few years ago needed no degree at all, just common sense. It used to be true that those who went to college were going to college for the STEM fields. Science, Technology, Engineering, and Medical. Not true anymore. Sure lots still go, but as a percentage of those with degrees, their percentage is dropping drastically.

Only in the west, it seems that in India and China the engineering fields are alive and well.


But really, what is your point here? I don’t consider many of the university degrees “education” nor do many high school students in both the US and Canada meet what should be the basic requirements. To me a highly educated society means individuals who have received a basic level of competency in all of the hard subject, physics, math, chemistry, biology, computers, language... so that if the need arises you can put them through a crash course and field them in a new career without requiring to go back to the basics.

Relax wrote:
Now add in a galactic war. PR machines everywhere are going to town. Will people who see their life threatened join up? Yes. Yes, they will sign up in droves. This has been true throughout history. Waving the bloody flag always works. And their population has a greater percentage of people available even before one considers prolong. Once one considers prolong, the number available for military service quadruples. So, if today if 0.5%-2% is comfortable for 60 years as the leading economy of the world without prolong, somehow I cannot possibly see Manticore/Haven etc being unable to field 2-4% of their population if they so desired.

Thats assuming your recruiting grounds are in the old SKM, I don't know what % of the 24 billion newly added citizens have received prolong, but it cannot be that great which means that a large chunk, essentially those over 25 years of age do not have it and it changes.


My disagreement is not wether Manticore can or cannot field 1% or more, my disagreement is wether the newly added populations can be expected to provide 1% or more for the military without a tremendous investment by the RMN in their education, and investment in manpower that the RMN cannot afford. Or do you expect the most educated element of Silesia and Talbott to be forced in to the military whcih cant possibly be good for their growth.

Read the house of steel portion where David Weber discusses logistics and the fleet train, while Manticore can provide trained technicians and engineers to their ships to make pretty extensive maintenance and repairs while away from ship yards, Haven could not do so for the fest 10 years of he war because of their lower education.

Relax wrote:Remember, you were claiming less than 0.5%. I have already shown you that historically that number is not true until post cold war. Personally, I see the situation post GA/Malign war as pretty much equivalent to the Cold War. Giant unknowns.

Read above, I am not arguing wether the old SKM can provide the 1% of its population, I am arguing that the SEM cannot field that force for the 10-15 years after 1920. Due to a large % of the population not having received prolong, the education system being poor to non existent etc... and the most important is that due to the extended course length, that manticore would invest more man-hours in training half the numbers. Essentially when they most need everyone on deck they will have a large cadre of RMN personnel to man training camps in Silesia and Talbott.

Relax wrote:PPS> IF anyone thinks that in the time frame of 1950-60, that Germany, Italy, France, Japan were our "allies", you have been smoking something you shouldn't have been.

Do you realize that de Gaulle fought with the allies on several theaters? And the Germans were allies as of 1955...


France was an ally of the US, albeit a difficult one who still had visions of grandeur, Japan was allies with the US on paper and they were not shooting at the US forces. For Germany and Japan they had no option but to be allies as their continual existence depended on American troops protecting them from external threats, and to some extend they still do depend on US protection. France as I said, still has some delusions of grandeur and in the 1950’s they were very much American allies.

Weird Harold wrote:

Relax wrote:Sorry, that means SDP/CLAC's and lots of them.

Yep, I sure hope that Mutual Defense Force the GA organized has enough of them. Their presence was part of my strategic assessment.

So you wouldn't be willing to invest in a proper defence but expect someone else to provide the defence for you? Unless those 20 systems are that poorly industrialized you should have more, because a mutual defence treaty is a give and take, you might be expected to pull your weight in local defend of an ally and if you cannot do that you might not have a treaty with anyone for long.

Let me get this straight, sigs...

The USA had near 2% of its population in uniform for 50 years... and it wasn't until the late 80's and 90's that it dropped drastically, in a society without prolong... and you have a problem with 1% with prolong? Get real.

It wasn't until the 80's when medicare medicaid and the other socialist programs implemented in the 70's kicked in that we had a deficit. Might have noticed, but % of guys in uniform shrank during this time period.

Oh yea:

Your idea of "ally" is someone you just forced into an unconditional surrender with their nation burned to the ground?

So, where is your home? Let me burn it to the ground with your wife inside. Then we are the best of buddies.....

Troll on!

PS> Anyone who takes anything the wikipedia says about the Honorverse is true needs to stop doing so pronto. Take only the words tabulated over at thefifthimperium.com on the Honorverse as true. Those are RFC's words. Not some BS speculation on wikipedia.

Sigs wrote:As for not being necessary for conformable living, where do you think the other 75% of the population works? or at least a large section of those 75% in the very sector that provides the luxury goods and services, start cutting in to that and see how determined the people are to support the troops.

Remind me as to when the uprising in the U.S. during WW2 over the lack of bartenders, salesmen, parking valets and shoeshine boys started?

One my complaints about the series as a whole is that you really don't get the feeling that Manticore is at war. The RMN is at war, but I don't get the feeling in what you see of the rest of society that Manticore is at war. I'm sure this changes after the MAN strike, but there really isn't any interaction with society shown outside the upper reaches of the government and the military.

Relax wrote:Let me get this straight, sigs...

The USA had near 2% of its population in uniform for 50 years... and it wasn't until the late 80's and 90's that it dropped drastically, in a society without prolong... and you have a problem with 1% with prolong? Get real.

Do you have reading Comprehension problems? Only ~11% of the SEM’s population is confirmed to have Prolong (Manticore, Sphinx, Gryphon and maybe San Martin with an unknown number from the rest of the new territories.) The Majority of the other ~24 billion remaining citizens DO NOT...read it again DO NOT have prolong. Using the basis of the population of planet Earth for pre-prolong demographics we see that ~42% of the population is under 25, so for everyone else who is over 25 and didn't get prolong WILL NOT BE GETTING PROLONG.

That means that there are ~3 billion from the old SKM who have received prolong or are receiving it/will receive it when they are old enough, then there are 42% of the remaining 89% who are at the limit or below meaning they are 24 years old or below which means that there are roughly 10.1 billion people who fit in that category and then there is the remaining ~58% of the 89% who did not receive nor will they ever be able to receive prolong...that is some 13.9 billion people or 51% of the TOTAL SEM POPULATION.

So this means that ~89% of the SEM’s population does not have prolong and of a total of ~51% who will not be able to get prolong... so that sort of throws your “prolong society” out the window does it not?

Relax wrote: Your idea of "ally" is someone you just forced into an unconditional surrender with their nation burned to the ground?

Sort of like the Republic of Haven right? I consider them US allies because they were in official alliances with the US, they might be reluctant ally but then again they would have fought besides the US and not against them... I would say that Germany was a very willing ally considering the alternative was occupation by the USSR...

Relax wrote: So, where is your home? Let me burn it to the ground with your wife inside. Then we are the best of buddies.....

If the alternative is worse I’d be your friend... besides I think you are underestimating the feeling of guilt that the Germans had after the war and they might not have blamed the Allies as much as you assume.

But most of all I would say they were allies because Germany was in NATO and they were allowed to militarize. Which to me tells me that they trusted them to a high enough degree.

kzt wrote:
Remind me as to when the uprising in the U.S. during WW2 over the lack of bartenders, salesmen, parking valets and shoeshine boys started?

Remind me when the US mobilized 8% of their population AFTER the war has ended? There is a huge difference between mobilizing alot of your citizens during a war and the people taking hardships for the good of the nation.

This is like comparing the Cold War to World War 2, do you think the people would have approved of the same sacrifices for the 30-40 years of the Cold War.

kzt wrote:One my complaints about the series as a whole is that you really don't get the feeling that Manticore is at war. The RMN is at war, but I don't get the feeling in what you see of the rest of society that Manticore is at war. I'm sure this changes after the MAN strike, but there really isn't any interaction with society shown outside the upper reaches of the government and the military.

I would love a more in-depth look as well, not even in the novels just as a stand alone encyclopedia type a thing.

Sigs wrote:So you wouldn't be willing to invest in a proper defence but expect someone else to provide the defence for you?

We apparently have different ideas of what constitutes a "proper defense." You seem to be advocating a "Force Projection" navy -- AKA a Conquistador Fleet. I don't propose to create an offensive force and do acknowledge the prior existence of a Nodal MDF force (and have made provisions in my force structure to participate if invited.)

The Ship types I specified are capable of standing up to a 1922 vintage GA SD(p) for a total hyper-capable defense against up to 20 SDs if given a chance to consolidate forces in a single system -- especially when backed by the Spider-LACs and Huacha superpods of the defending system.

IOW, I have no intention of invading anyone, and the primary defense of member systems is non-hyper-capable Spider-LACs and Huacha superpods.


I did specify that the Renaissance Factor might become a concern in the future, and if they do become a threat, the strategic assumptions will change and the force structure will change with them. Likewise, the MDF Node will probably change with changing Strategic assumptions, and the available level of assistance against aggression will change my assessment of whether I need something with more offensive punch than a BCL(p) loaded with Apollo equivalents for my in-house QRF.

kzt wrote:

SWM wrote:They can not target mere factories from orbit, even if they are constructing weapons; if he wants to take out a factory, he has to land troops.

No, you can't use a weapon of mass destruction on it that would be expected to have significant impact beyond the target. You can blow up targets of military significance as long as large-scale casualties of civilians outside the target are not expected. See David's explanation of how blowing up three populated orbital platforms, killing millions of people and destroying a city on the planet is not an edict violation.

Did you read what David said? It seems quite clear to me.

The comparison to Operation Oyster Bay does not hold. Oyster Bay was a completely different situation. First of all, the targets were orbital facilities, not planetary facilities. The only restriction the Eridani Edict has on targeting orbital facilities is that it cannot deliberately endanger people on the planet. The Eridani Edict says NOTHING about attacking orbital facilities.

Second, the orbital facilities attacked in Oyster Bay were not merely civilian or manufacturing facilities. They also had navy ships docked at them, which made them legitimate military targets even under the restricted rules of the Eridani Edict, if the Edict applied to orbital facilities.

Third, Oyster Bay was not conducted by an attacker who controlled near space. Under the Eridani Edict, attacks on a planet from orbit are not permitted under any circumstances if you do not control near space--but attacks on orbital facilities are permitted.

So Oyster Bay has nothing at all to do with attacking a factory on a planet. Under the Eridani Edict, orbital bombardment onto on a planet is allowed ONLY IF:
1) the attacker controls near space
2) the attacker can land troops on the planet
3) the defender has no hope of relief from nearby forces
4) the defender must have refused to surrender when asked.
5) the target must be purely military target, with a limited definition requiring it to have immediate, tactical applications and capabilities
6) the attack must be of targeted measured force which does not give the appearance of deliberately causing more civilian casualties than necessary.

Basically, this is a situation in which you already effectively control the planet but the planet refuses to accept it. You have the capability of wiping out all life on the planet, and they know it. The Eridani Edict says you can't do it, but you also don't have to put your troops into excessive danger by sending them against hard targets. You can take those hard targets out from orbit, including command and control centers, until the defenders give up or are destroyed.0

But you cannot target an undefended planetary factory with orbital bombardment, under any circumstances, under the Eridani Edict. If you don't control the orbitals, you can't bombard the planet at all. And if you control the orbitals, you cannot target an undefended factory because it is not among the very specific types of military targets which are permitted. If it is defended, then the defenses are a legitimate target and the factory will be entirely reasonable collateral damage. If it is undefended, you can take it with your troops without undue danger; you are not permitted to bombard it from orbit just because it is easier. Your troops can bomb the factory if they need to; you just can't do it from orbit. If you don't have the ability to drop troops onto the factory, then you don't meet the requirements of the Eridani Edict in the first place, and you aren't allowed to bombard the planet at all. Once again, it is a matter of measured response--orbital bombardment against an undefended factory is massive overkill and not permitted.

This is not 21st century Earth. On Earth, all we have are the troops (in the broad sense including land, air, sea, and ground and air launched missiles), and it is the troops that destroy factories. That is not prohibited under the Eridani Edict, though there may be other interstellar rules of war covering that. There isn't really a good comparison between the Eridani Edict and any historical situation on Earth.