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WDJB Shooting

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Re: WDJB Shooting
Post by gcomeau   » Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:58 am

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PeterZ wrote: As more people returned to public assistance, crime began to rise again. The reversal of the trend came within the last 2 years. Revisiting the data suggests that the decline continued at least until 2012. I haven't devoted the time to collect specific data for more recent periods.


You realize that "as more people returned to public assistance" is another way of saying "as more people fell into poverty" right?

And that the link between poverty and crime is pretty darn solidly established (and has the bonus of actually making some kind of rational sense, as opposed to this nebulous "victimhood--->crime" connection you are trying to claim exists?)

Saying social welfare programs are responsible for people turning to crime when they fall into poverty is like saying soup kitchens at churches are responsible for homelessness because look! As homelessness increases more people visit soup kitchens! They're correlated!

Or that hospital emergency rooms are responsible for injuries because look! As injuries increase look how many people are visiting emergency rooms! They totally go together!
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Re: WDJB Shooting
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:43 pm

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I guess that the reference is to the Battle of Pavia,
in 1525, the first battle decided by hand-held guns.

HTM, who just checked Wikipedia for the date.

gcomeau wrote:
Imaginos1892 wrote:
someone had written:
Or, you know, regulate them *sanely* like so many other nations manage to do...

Imaginos 1892 replied:
It's 500 years too late for that.


The explanation of that statement should at least prove to be good for some entertainment value.
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Re: WDJB Shooting
Post by biochem   » Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:42 pm

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gcomeau wrote:
dscott8 wrote:My topic here is not gun control, or racism, or even murder. It is, why does our nation slap band-aids on problems instead of identifying the root causes and fixing them? Is it because a true fix often can't be implemented before the next election? Or are we too intellectually lazy to work through it, preferring to swallow our opinions from agenda-driven politicians, preachers and pundits who are so far removed from a normal citizen's daily life that they neither know nor care what the real issues are?


It's because the real fix is politically untenable until a larger percentage of the American electorate grow the hell up ...




("Fix" being defined as effective measures which significantly reduce such incidents, not magical remedies that make all violence and criminality be banished from humanity... in case anyone wants to be deliberately obtuse and pretend they don't understand that...)



It's also difficult is other ways. The major underlying problem in these types of shooting incidents is untreated/undertreated mental illness. We don't have a good fix for this. The mental health system in this country is badly broken. But there isn't a magic wand.

The simple solution suggested by the media - treat the mentally ill. How??? Involuntary commitment? That would certainly stop some of these crimes but 10,000s (or more) people exhibit similar symptoms. Most will never go on to commit a crime like this.

We probably could (and should) increase the number of involuntary commitments substantially but if those most obviously in need of mental treatment are committed many/most of these shooters will be missed. While they are weird nutcases most of them are functional enough to miss a sweep of that sort. If the parameters of the sweep are expanded enough to catch them, they will also sweep up eccentrics and those who just want to be weird. There are a lot of civil liberty implications here. In the old days the pendulum was too far in the commitment direction and a lot of people who never should have been committed were locked up. These days the pendulum has swung the other direction and it's practically impossible to get someone committed. We desperately need to find middle ground, but that middle ground isn't going to be easy to find. What is weird vs what is signs of a mass shooter about to explode? Not even psychiatrists can tell with 100% certainty.
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Re: WDJB Shooting
Post by Daryl   » Fri Aug 28, 2015 6:33 am

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This shooting made front page news around the world because of the way it happened, and that one victim was a pretty lady; yet it wasn't even classed as a "mass shooting" in the USA because the definition of that is four or more at one time. The USA apparently has 6.2 "mass shootings" every week.
I'm sure that there are many causes, but the easy availability of guns has to be one, in that there are many similar societies (democratic, free press, well to do) in the world which all have much lower levels of gun murders and gun ownership as the most significant and relevant difference.
Trump has come out saying that it is the level of untreated mentally ill people not guns, but I'm sure that we have similar levels of nutters here, definitely not only 1 in 30 to the USA (as in gun murders).
The shooter's pathetic justification that he was discriminated against because of being black and gay still is no excuse. There are lots of successful people who are black, gay or both; and still no excuse even if it was true.

I'm sure that there is a connection between the USA not having a comprehensive national welfare net, and having far and away the highest incarceration rate. Hell if I had no money I'd steal to feed my family. As to how much that desperation leads to gangs and gun violence I'm unsure, but must be some connection.
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Re: WDJB Shooting
Post by pokermind   » Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:46 am

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Let us face facts the reason this is news is the media and political hatred of firearms in the hands of the people, not to mention media people being the victems. Notice stabbing are not reported, I know of one professor killed by a disgruntled master's student with a claw hammer.

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Re: WDJB Shooting
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Aug 28, 2015 9:55 am

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Daryl wrote:This shooting made front page news around the world because of the way it happened, and that one victim was a pretty lady; yet it wasn't even classed as a "mass shooting" in the USA because the definition of that is four or more at one time. The USA apparently has 6.2 "mass shootings" every week.
I'm sure that there are many causes, but the easy availability of guns has to be one, in that there are many similar societies (democratic, free press, well to do) in the world which all have much lower levels of gun murders and gun ownership as the most significant and relevant difference.
Trump has come out saying that it is the level of untreated mentally ill people not guns, but I'm sure that we have similar levels of nutters here, definitely not only 1 in 30 to the USA (as in gun murders).
The shooter's pathetic justification that he was discriminated against because of being black and gay still is no excuse. There are lots of successful people who are black, gay or both; and still no excuse even if it was true.

I'm sure that there is a connection between the USA not having a comprehensive national welfare net, and having far and away the highest incarceration rate. Hell if I had no money I'd steal to feed my family. As to how much that desperation leads to gangs and gun violence I'm unsure, but must be some connection.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dd_awTN3pk

Mrs. Hubbard encapsulates the issue nicely.

It's not the comprehensive welfare net per se. It's the repetition to those on welfare that this meager livelihood of theirs is a result of their being victims of discrimination and bigotry. How angry would one feel if one is constantly told that one's poverty is a result of being victimized by some other group? Quite angry. If that state of affairs is true, it must be changed by just about any means necessary. Breaking out via crime or violence becomes more acceptable.

The rise in crime since the 1960's accompanied by the introduction of those social programs reflects the growing pervasiveness of the victim mentality. The sense that the poor minorities are poor because they are the objects of discrimination and bigotry grew. In the 1990's Clinton's signing of welfare reform encouraged poor minorities and a goodly number of generational welfare recipients to seek their opportunities outside the welfare net. They succeeded in growing numbers. These people became not victims but masters of their destiny, or at least able sailors on their own ship navigating the seas of fate. Crime fell and continued to fall through the .com bubble recession as well as the WFC recession. It was not until the past 2 years that crime started to rise again.

The rise in crime is worst in those areas that have had US liberal governance for decades. Places like Chicago and Baltimore have had liberal Democrats running things for decades. These cities have minorities in office. They do not target minorities with discrimination and bigotry. Yet, crime in these cities were the first to reverse their downward trend. That reversal was not sparked by economic difficulty or increase public assistance. The economy has been struggling since 2007 and crime continued to fall until at least 2012. No, the reversal appears to have been sparked by the deaths of Trayvon Martin and especially by Michael Brown.

The circumstances of the deaths of these two individuals have been mischaracterized and spread far and wide. The hands up don't shoot mantra of the Black Lives Matter folks is a case in point. Eye witness and forensic evidence suggests that Mr. Brown did not suffer the fatal shot trying to surrender, but instead he died trying to rush the policeman. That mischaracterization was used to launch a political movement based on reveling in being a victim. The anger at believing one is the object of bigotry and discrimination fuels much of the violence we see and the situation Mrs. Hubbard describes in her rant.
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Re: WDJB Shooting
Post by Imaginos1892   » Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:55 am

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Howard T. Map-addict wrote:I guess that the reference is to the Battle of Pavia,
in 1525, the first battle decided by hand-held guns.

HTM, who just checked Wikipedia for the date.

Actually, I didn't have any specific event in mind; that's just about how long it's been since guns were developed into practical weapons.

Matchlocks are not practical. It's not ready to shoot unless you've got a burning rope stuck in it.

Since guns exist, trying to ban them is as stupid and futile as trying to ban gambling, or (some) drugs, or prostitution, or alcohol, or any of a dozen other Bad Things we must be kept away from For Our Own Good. The damage done by these misguided attepts to Save Us From Ourselves is a hundred times worse than the things we're being Protected From.
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Why do the politicians keep calling their runaway government spending "investment"? Because "flushing your tax money down a rat-hole" just wouldn't play well?
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