Archangels return - priests/clones w/reprogrammed memory?

Aethor wrote:Also, regarding downloading into the human brain: RFC said in posts on this forum that in the TF times, people used to sync their memories both ways, so that if their PICA spent some time autonomously, the memories from that period would be copied to the organic brain to keep both personalities in sync.

Aethor wrote:

SWM wrote:You misunderstand my statement about the need for implants. Yes, in an emergency situation, you can upload a person's memories into a computer without an implant. But it destroys the brain when you do it! You can't use that to put memories into a brain.

I was saying that you need the brain implant to download memories from a computer back into a brain. So you can't download memories into a native adult Safeholdian because they don't have implants. You have to put the implant into the brain during childhood.

Actually, you cannot upload it without implants, and uploading doesn't destroy the brain.

Textev: MTaT: "The nannies built the receptors we needed,” Nimue said in a flat tone. “And they found the material to build them by scavenging other parts of your brain. They had to do that anyway for me to block the pain, since you didn’t have the receptors someone on Old Terra would’ve had, but it wasn’t easy and they couldn’t do it without inflicting a lot of additional damage. If by some miracle you hadn’t died after all, Nahrmahn, you’d’ve been a complete paralytic afterwards."

So, what damaged Nahrmahn's brain was that the nanites used some parts of it as materials to build receptors. The process of uploading by itself does not damage the brain.
(Otherwise nobody could ever upload his personality to a PICA or VR).

Additionally, Nahrmahn was dying at the time, only nanites kept him alive and they would have stopped functioning soon.

Also, what probably added to the damage was that the process was not really prepared, in many ways. Merlin was not a trained neurosurgeon or even a paramedic. The instrument used for it was just barebones - even a TF paramedic would have a selection of assorted stuff available.
A prepared hospital (the sickbay in the Temple) would have a lot more.

And if it had needed materials, prepared, then it would not need to take some parts of the brain to use as materials. Which means that you could do the same that was done to Nahrmahn, but without causing the brain damage.

Once the implants are built, then you can download.

SWM wrote:
You misunderstand my statement about the need for implants. Yes, in an emergency situation, you can upload a person's memories into a computer without an implant. But it destroys the brain when you do it! You can't use that to put memories into a brain.

I was saying that you need the brain implant to download memories from a computer back into a brain. So you can't download memories into a native adult Safeholdian because they don't have implants. You have to put the implant into the brain during childhood.

n7axw wrote:

SWM wrote:
You misunderstand my statement about the need for implants. Yes, in an emergency situation, you can upload a person's memories into a computer without an implant. But it destroys the brain when you do it! You can't use that to put memories into a brain.

I was saying that you need the brain implant to download memories from a computer back into a brain. So you can't download memories into a native adult Safeholdian because they don't have implants. You have to put the implant into the brain during childhood.

Hi SWM,

A couple of assumptions you seem to be making here that I would like to see considered a bit more.

First, that uploading memories into a computer from a human brain to a computer destroys the brain. We do know that happened in Nahrman's case from Merlin's explanation later on. But we also know that Merlin was hastily improvising with materials he had on hand before Nahrman could slip away. This may well not be true if there had been time to plan ahead and use a different approach...

Secondly, the other assumption is that infancy is the only time implants can be installed. What we do know about this is that Terran infants had the inplants installed routinely as a matter of course. Unless we have evidence to the contrary of which I am unaware, this does not preclude the notion that with qualified personal staffing a modern hosptal, implants couldn't be installed in an adult.

Don

SWM wrote:I was saying that you need the brain implant to download memories from a computer back into a brain. So you can't download memories into a native adult Safeholdian because they don't have implants. You have to put the implant into the brain during childhood.

SWM wrote:I already recanted on the first point.

On the second, it is the same implant as needed for the NEAT. And the text tells us that NEATs cannot be provided for adults--it has to be implanted in childhood. Sharleyan and Cayleb were quite disappointed to discover that they could never have NEAT installed.

SWM wrote:I know Option 2 is impossible. I think Options 3 and 4 are not possible, based on what we know of Federation technology. I suspect that Option 1 is also not possible.

Memory downloading is only possible with a full brain shunt implant (I forget what it is called in the books). These implants have to be installed in infancy. So that eliminates option 2; it can't be done to a random adult.

I believe that full memory downloading is customized to each person--to their physical body. I don't think you can download the complete memories of Person X into Person Y. I think it is too closely linked to a specific brain architecture. I think you could download some memories, but not enough to generate the personality behind them. If I am correct, that eliminates Options 3 and 4.

For option 1, I assume you grow the clone to adulthood. You could install the mind shunt, of course, at an early age. But the mind would be unformed. Could you install the memories into an unformed mind? Would the brain architecture be close enough? If the downloading is as closely tied to a specific mind as I think, then I suspect you can't. But I'm not sure. It might be that the act of downloading the memories creates the architecture on an unformed mind.

WeberFan wrote:

SWM wrote:I know Option 2 is impossible. I think Options 3 and 4 are not possible, based on what we know of Federation technology. I suspect that Option 1 is also not possible.

Memory downloading is only possible with a full brain shunt implant (I forget what it is called in the books). These implants have to be installed in infancy. So that eliminates option 2; it can't be done to a random adult.

I believe that full memory downloading is customized to each person--to their physical body. I don't think you can download the complete memories of Person X into Person Y. I think it is too closely linked to a specific brain architecture. I think you could download some memories, but not enough to generate the personality behind them. If I am correct, that eliminates Options 3 and 4.

For option 1, I assume you grow the clone to adulthood. You could install the mind shunt, of course, at an early age. But the mind would be unformed. Could you install the memories into an unformed mind? Would the brain architecture be close enough? If the downloading is as closely tied to a specific mind as I think, then I suspect you can't. But I'm not sure. It might be that the act of downloading the memories creates the architecture on an unformed mind.

Agreed. Especially with your last two paragraphs. Don't think it would work at all with an "unformed mind" but that's my impression based on Merlin's discussions with Olyvayah and Nahrmahn.

ChaChaCharms wrote:
Heh... can anyone think why this would be a bad idea besides me? I mean you have got the Geth and Cybermen for starters... God I am so far into withdrawl I am imagining the Gbaba fighting species from different universes..