Total $Tax Rates$ In The Honorverse? ...

Theemile wrote:We discussed this pretty thoroughly several years ago, and the number could be quite higher than 5%. [...]

Especially since the Python Lump of SD(P)s were just finished and you'd think that would mean a lot of yard workers were taking their first long vacation in two years.

Brigade XO wrote:A problem with this discussion of survivors is that RFC has- several times- beaten it with at 20lb sledge hammer. Off-shift workes would NOT be routinely dropping down to which ever planet the station they were on was orbiting. Same for "vacations" or "weekends" (any multi-day non-work time off). The largest "yards" were part of each station. All the Grayson style disbursed yards- that were active- were hit at the same time as the major stations.

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Agreed - but because RFC wants to Geld Manticore's Ship production he's creating a mildly artifical situation - in the "Real World" all the items mentioned would add significantly to the number of survivors.

Theemile wrote:Agreed - but because RFC wants to Geld Manticore's Ship production he's creating a mildly artifical situation - in the "Real World" all the items mentioned would add significantly to the number of survivors.

But he doesn't want to really hurt Manticore, which what he said would. The fact that you don't have shipyards or fusion reactor factories is a big problem. The fact that you have lost the entire infrastructure that things are built up from is a disaster. You have no switches, pumps, gaskets, cabling, etc that you use to build devices from.

This is the situation that somoeone today trying to build a new Satrun V from the plans has. All the plans exist, but the parts the plans call for don't. Manufactures fold, technology innovation makes some parts no longer sansible to build, etc. So you need to redesign the bird to use available parts. Which means you then have to re-qualify every subassembly, major system and the entire vehicle as a whole.

Edit: Once you have done this, presumably using the Andi or Beowulf supply chain, you are now dependent on them for parts for the models you are building. Even after you have rebuilt you entire supply chain those are the parts that you know work.

So you need to do the same thing all over again to move back to a manticore supply chain source. Which means two seemingly identical ships might have a very different list of spares. Spare bought from a different star nation, that you will need a continual supply of for decades. This will be the case until you have completely built and tested a 1:1 replacement (if possible) or have the manufacturer license you to build their parts and have tested what you are making is in fact totally identical to the ones you imported.

Rebuilding the infrastructure is exactly as hard as described in having to build most of the equipment that you need to build the equipment that you need to build the production equipment for what you really want--which is factories and shipyards for things like weapons, miles of cable in all manner of types and sizes, circuit boards. controls and communications systems,the list goes on and on.

Sure, there are some spares, but those are only either at repair areas at places like Basilisk or Matapan or in stores lockers on repair ships or active duty warships. You can probably get some things contracted out at Erewhon or some of the members of the original Maticore Alliance (like Alizon) but when you start talking fusion bottles and molycrlic you would have to do a LOT of remedial building there as well plus have people that know how to do what you want made.

Beowulf has a shot at makeing a lot of stuff for Manticore- presuming it doesn't loose a lot of that capasity to make anything in the next wave of damage and disaster planned by either/both the SL and the Alignment.

Grayson lost everything that you would need to replace all the buildout again including the same level of people/workforce.

The Aldermani MIGHT be able to start fabrication of production lines for weapons using SEM plans but to start producing things like fusion engines and a lot of other systems for Manticore (and Grayson) they would have to start (almost from scratch) intergrated production facilites (to make all the component pieces) set to Manticore speicications and making the new suff (dam near all of it) so that it matches Manticorian tech specs in all instances, not just modify Aldermani gear to sort of work like and fit and connect just like Manticor Tec designs.

Do you really want to graft an Aldermani fusion plant and all its controls and monitors and safey systems (even a new one) from a Watzenhimer class DD into new production Roland class DD? Does it fit into the space designed on the hull, are the controls and monitoring equipment calibrated the same (units of measurement, language etc) How different are the operations and maintenance schedules? That's just one example.

Manticore and Grayson are going to have to REPLACE all the layers of the manufacturing and fabrication systems plus the logistic infrastructure (and the people who do the work at all levels) for at least the majority of the existing equipment and products they need. Everything from what makes the gages and readouts on controls to the line jacks to plug in enviornmenal and communication on skinsuites to the construcion ships and barges that make/repair/mantain space stations.

Years and years and years worth of making stuff and training the people to make & operate what is needed

Brigade XO wrote:The Aldermani MIGHT be able to start fabrication of production lines for weapons using SEM plans but to start producing things like fusion engines and a lot of other systems for Manticore (and Grayson) they would have to start (almost from scratch) intergrated production facilites (to make all the component pieces) set to Manticore speicications and making the new suff (dam near all of it) so that it matches Manticorian tech specs in all instances, not just modify Aldermani gear to sort of work like and fit and connect just like Manticor Tec designs.

It's aNdermani, not aldermani.

The Andermani were modifying their own SD(P)s for Keyhole II, so I would expect them to be up to speed on all thee systems incorporated into that system -- FTL com/fire control, microfusion plants, extended range CMs, PDLCs, tactical-computer support, etc. It isn't specified, but I would expect the IAN to have developed their own source of supply for Apollo Missiles (ACM and MK 23/25) and RMN quality recon drones.

It is worse than stated.

Even if all the knowledge is retained on what is needed: great you put in an order for 100% of the factory parts required. Problem is your suppliers are also gone and is their knowledge base in tact? What about their suppliers for their machines?

Think about it, if you had an entire machine shop, and now it is gone, even though you are a crack mechanic you cannot do a darned thing as you do not even own a screw driver and in fact are waiting for a factory which also does no exist to create the machines to make said screw driver before making a screw driver and then building enough of them to begin shipping them. Who else needs screwdrivers? The most basic of tools.... everyone. That is who.

Infrastructure, everyone takes it for granted when in fact it is actually hundreds years worth of built up knowledge and building physical infrastructure. Think about it, even their power systems are gone. Kinda hard to work in a vacuum, when the CO2 scrubbers which don't exist don't have power either, or the lights in which to build the machines to start building the scrubbers or transformers, let alone the light fixtures who need a powder coating machine that once again, does not exist, therefore reflected light is less, or power connectors to the light fixtures or the LED(light emitting device) in the fixture...

Weird Harold wrote:It isn't specified, but I would expect the IAN to have developed their own source of supply for Apollo Missiles (ACM and MK 23/25) and RMN quality recon drones.

No, they didn't. However the RMN sent a technical liaison team to the ANI post OB with all the plans Mk-23s etc per the question I asked David at Honorcon.

kzt wrote:<snip>

This is the situation that somoeone today trying to build a new Satrun V from the plans has. All the plans exist, but the parts the plans call for don't. Manufactures fold, technology innovation makes some parts no longer sansible to build, etc. So you need to redesign the bird to use available parts. Which means you then have to re-qualify every subassembly, major system and the entire vehicle as a whole.
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Taking your Saturn V thought further - In the Real word, after the launch of Skylab, There were ~3-4 (sorry don't remember exact count) remaining Saturn V launchers already built for the scrubbed moon launches. When Skylab was starting to decay in it's orbit and the Shuttle was taking too long in preproduction to reach Skylab and boost it, an interim solution was floated to use another Saturn V to boost the station (and add on to it while they were at it).

It was quickly found that the computer tapes containing the launch software for the Saturn V (and their backups)had been recycled since the launch of Skylab, just 5-6 years before. It was determined that the cost to reprogram the launch protocols was too costly and potentially dangerous. As a result, 100's of millions of dollars of completed launch hardware became museum pieces.

Schematics, Working hardware, the original designers, launch facilities and infrastructure - just missing some software, and we couldn't get it to work.

Brigade XO wrote:A problem with this discussion of survivors is that RFC has- several times- beaten it with at 20lb sledge hammer. Off-shift workes would NOT be routinely dropping down to which ever planet the station they were on was orbiting. Same for "vacations" or "weekends" (any multi-day non-work time off). The largest "yards" were part of each station. All the Grayson style disbursed yards- that were active- were hit at the same time as the major stations.

On the one hand, we need to think of the stations being cities entirely in and of themselves (it's not the ISS!) and thus in the normal cause of things there's no especial reason to leave. Everything you need, including most leisure facilities is available right on your doorstep, so yeah most people are going to spend most of their time there.

OTOH it's not like getting to/from the station is like travelling between Northern Scotland and Tasmania (for instance) which is the sort of trip you do for a big holiday and/or because a close friend/family member is getting married. It's more like travelling from basically anywhere in the UK to any of the major cities - if you want to be there, then in no more than 3 hours you likely are there. So if there's a concert from some music artist you like off you go, or if your mother's in hospital for $REASON it's no probably to go and visit her.

PalmerSperry wrote:OTOH it's not like getting to/from the station is like travelling between Northern Scotland and Tasmania (for instance) which is the sort of trip you do for a big holiday and/or because a close friend/family member is getting married. It's more like travelling from basically anywhere in the UK to any of the major cities - if you want to be there, then in no more than 3 hours you likely are there. So if there's a concert from some music artist you like off you go, or if your mother's in hospital for $REASON it's no probably to go and visit her.

Are you from the UK? I ask because in my experience, it's about four to six hours from Glasgow to London by rail or road(and that's for an express or overnight run, when traffic levels are low). A friend makes a road journey from Aberdeen to Lincoln every December - each way, it's at least seven hours, occasionally rising to nine.

Air travel is quicker, of course, but comes with a number of hindrances. Advanced reservation. Check-in. Airport security. Overpriced junk. Flight delays. Diverted flights. Lost luggage. Your car, which could probably have made the journey more cheaply(even if you travelled solo) and provided you with flexibility, isn't at the destination.