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Re: Build a Fleet! | |
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by Relax » Wed Aug 26, 2015 9:57 am | |
Relax
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Lets see, have to have the design. Have to figure out how to build it with No infrastructure, so have to build that as well, then have to test it somehow, then do some damage with it.
After that heroic achievement, then have to build the space based infrastructure and build a fleet before your can gets the BLEEP kicked out of you. How many years does that all take? Look, they do not have conquer and hold, they have to conquer, and then leave them independent. Doing so does not create massive ill will. Conquering and holding on the other hand certainly does. As I have said before, there certainly will be planets that spout they will kill you from every pulpit and forum in the system. Somehow I doubt there will be many such planets. Besides you have hundreds of planets to pull troops from. Number of planets in your mutual defense partners will be growing as well. Wouldn't be surprised that in the end at least 1000 such planets will be in mutual defense treaty against the rest. _________
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Re: Build a Fleet! | |
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by Weird Harold » Wed Aug 26, 2015 10:00 am | |
Weird Harold
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The GA doesn't need to "hold the high orbitals" and nobody is going to need to build SAMs in hidden tunnels. If they do, then the "Harrington Doctrine" has failed. The Harrington Doctrine implicitly commits Manticore -- and by extension the GA and any future mutual defense partners -- to organizing, and participating in, a (multi-national) peace-keeping force and rendering assistance to, up to, 2,000 SDFs. Logically that should require as many as 200 nodal reaction forces featuring at least squadron strength elements from the GA. (note "from the GA," not from Manticore or Haven alone.) "Holding the high orbitals" is incompatible with inviting a treaty partner to contribute a squadron to a Mutual Defense Force for Piracy/Slavery suppression. ETA:
"They" (the GA?) don't have to "conquer" at all. All they need to do is make a separate peace with each member or group of members of the Solarian League. That probably won't happen without the members seceding from the League. But Beowulf is the model the GA wants to copy, not Masada. .
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Re: Build a Fleet! | |
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by Jonathan_S » Wed Aug 26, 2015 10:33 am | |
Jonathan_S
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Um, stainless steel would be a pretty crappy road suface. Sure it may last for ages but it's got much lower friction than asphalt or concrete making it less safe to drive on. Oh, and I think it would retain heat less well that asphalt or concrete, so it might tend to ice or freeze sooner. Less importantly it would also make it harder if you have to dig up the road for utility work. Finally I'm not sure how stainless steel would handle roadbed shifting (whether from earthquakes, frost heaving, moisture [whether abnormally saturating or abnormally drying out], etc) Some of that can be fixed by applying a no-slip coating to the metal plates (like on carrier decks) but the coating is a wear item so you're back to needing people periodically resurfacing (well, now recoating) the road. Stainless is nice stuff, but its not an answer to everything |
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Re: Build a Fleet! | |
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by Relax » Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:29 am | |
Relax
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Friction coefficient is directly proportional to roughness... As for "tearing it up", well they make these wonderful machines called plasma torches... With energy dirt cheap, it is just as likely that under every street would be a maintenance tunnel where all of the utilities would reside. Power, water, communications. Therefore repair is simple. Could we do this today with concrete? Sure, but the cost would be astronomical. Once done, sure would save enormous amounts of costs later, but initially, ouch. Frost heaving/moisture content/etc, all you have to do is jam spikes into the ground so the entire road surface is partially suspended. Think of the exact same way that nearly all skyscrappers foundations are built. Long, deep, pilings driven deep into the subterranean ground. Obviously on a road surface one does need to do this. Of course frost heaving is caused by poor road subsurface treatment when the road was built to begin with. So, if energy is free, driving down the cost of transportation and excavation, then excavating poor road materials first becomes palm in face obvious along with bringing in rock creating a stable road bed before the final top waterproof high durability road surface is applied. Could just as easily go with a silicone carbide road surface or vanadium carbide embedded in aluminum or... Pretty much the cost of energy ultimately drives the cost of every product everyone touches. Why civilization will remain fairly stagnant until the next breakthrough in CHEAP energy. Might have noticed, the Concorde does not fly any more. Energy costs. PS. If energy cost for materials truly does cost little, creating a maglev system for all roads should be doable. Combine that with vacuum lines for long distance travel. Drive your maglev car onto a platform, egg encloses, enters a vacuum tube, and blasts you along at Mach 3 or whatever speed is deemed sufficient before the oxygen runs out of your "egg". All of this infrastructure which we could DO TODAY, is ultimate not possible due to the cost of energy required in investment to create the infrastructure in the first place. _________
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Re: Build a Fleet! | |
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by Armed Neo-Bob » Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:38 am | |
Armed Neo-Bob
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This quote limit is a pain; on the other hand, no one seems to be snipping enough, so maybe it is for the best. Harold, I think you are right, that the GA isn't going to need to do much invading and conquering; it looks like the SLN will implode, just trying to get some of their wormholes back. Are you suggesting that the GA is best off just allowing the SLN to self- destruct in a painfully expensive way? Once the economy melts, the GA won't need to conquer anyone. Just offer pirate-free safe trade zones. The League Members will work out their own security agreements with each other, and abandon their "Fleet Admirals." They will (or won't) coalesce into more manageable chunks, without Manticore interfering. Of course, MAlign will be interfering, but ask anyone--they don't exist! Rob |
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Re: Build a Fleet! | |
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by Relax » Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:40 am | |
Relax
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I don't know about you, but showing up with a fleet or even a single ship, to negotiate this new "mutual understanding" with ex OLD "prestigous" SL worlds who ALL KNOW you are there with brass rings on your fingers, even though they look like shiny diamonds, all know that in reality, you just "conquered" them. Why? 75% have no defense at all. These folks all know, that without them kowtowing to your "mutual" defense "treaty" just means them being conquered by someone else. You conquered them whether there were giant space battles or not. France in WWII was ultimately conquered by the allies in WWII. There is a reason USA had so many troops stationed in France for so long post WWII(20 years) France wasn't real popular with either the USA or the UK post WWII as their political "elite" essentially asked the Germans how high they needed to jump to maintain their "power prestige" even though they were "conquered". The Vichy French were not nice people and they composed the core of the old political establishment. So post war, who do they give the political reigns back to? The gutless cowards who stabbed you to begin with? Uh, no. There will be plenty of such scenarios in this new Honorverse alignment of worlds post SL dissolution. _________
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Re: Build a Fleet! | |
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by George J. Smith » Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:54 am | |
George J. Smith
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Well seeing as most people will be driving (air)cars does it matter what the road surface is made of? .
T&R GJS A man should live forever, or die in the attempt Spider Robinson Callahan's Crosstime Saloon (1977) A voice is heard in Ramah |
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Re: Build a Fleet! | |
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by Weird Harold » Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:14 pm | |
Weird Harold
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I suspect that a large part of the diplomatic effort is going to be channeled through Beowulf and other successor states before the GA shows up to render military assistance and negotiate bilateral trade agreements. I also suspect that the GA won't quibble a great deal if any particular system wants to ally with some other 'modern' military power -- Erewhon, Maya, Anderman, or even the Renaissance Factor. The latter may raise some red flags, depending on how the intelligence campaign against the MAlign goes, but as long as there is a separate peace treaty that disassociates the system from the League. I'm sure that there will be a few systems that object to the iron fist in the velvet glove, but that is the reason Honor specified policy well beyond the simple peace treaties:
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Re: Build a Fleet! | |
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by Relax » Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:25 pm | |
Relax
Posts: 3214
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Well seeing as the discussion had nothing to do with magic bean anti gravity possibilities in the future, but rather costs associated with infrastructure and cost of materials..... Yes, it certainly does matter what the road surface is made out of. _________
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Re: Build a Fleet! | |
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by George J. Smith » Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:36 pm | |
George J. Smith
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Just replying to that series of posts, which also have nothing to do with building a fleet. .
T&R GJS A man should live forever, or die in the attempt Spider Robinson Callahan's Crosstime Saloon (1977) A voice is heard in Ramah |
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