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Build a Fleet!

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Build a Fleet!
Post by Sigs   » Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:25 am

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Relax wrote:
Sigs wrote:Your argument seems to hinge on there being a finite number of jobs. We may end up having the cashier at McDonalds being replaced with a computer but that does not mean that over the next 2,000 years new jobs and new kinds of jobs cannot be created...


Historically the jobs that existed were:

Farmer, today far fewer farmers are needed due to? Machines. Far fewer will be needed tomorrow.

Teacher, today far fewer are needed there as well as curriculum materials improve and more become available.

Engineer/civil etc. Number is dropping as the infrastructure available for excellent life is in place. Contentment. When a new technology comes around, a whole new plethora of engineers are needed to design and implement this into everyday life. Once this is done, the engineers in this field essentially vanish. Once this is done in enough fields, the reliability of these fields increases to such an extent that fewer are needed to maintain as well.



For the first part, there are less farmers than say 200 years ago, but we need far more pilots, mechanics, Air traffic control etc... see where I'm getting at? Technology created a situation where we need fewer farmers, but on the other hand it created entire industries and thousands if not hundreds of thousands of careers.

As for teachers? We need fewer teachers because fewer teachers = less money it has nothing to do with technology decreasing the need for teachers but in fact technology is creating an ever greater demand for education and teachers.


So you are saying that once the infrastructure is in place, there is no demand for more? How much of the Infrastructure in the US and Canada is near collapse? It has little to do with demand disappearing and more to do with money...





Relax wrote: In short, we are at the very beginning of the technology age. We are now projecting 2000 years into the future where infrastructure has had 2000 years to be built. The speed of building said infrastructure is directly tied to energy available and the available machines.

And we are project 2,000 years into the future, with jobs we cannot yet imagine because they are brought on by technologies we cannot imagine. Technology progresses, it makes some jobs obsolete, but it creates other jobs so at the end it balances out.


Relax wrote: If you want a basic tutorial, look no further than the Nicaraguan canal cost analysis. Their one and only true cost is the $$$ required for diesel fuel to run various machines to move earth and create power to either create concrete or bring it in from outside sources. This is true of all infrastructure by and large be it telecommunications or road building.


What does this prove? That Labour is cheaper than diesel in Nicaragua? Or are you saying that there is no humans on that job site?




Relax wrote: Honorverse has Fusion tech and has had it for a VERY long time. Thus, infrastructure costs and manhour costs are minute at best. Vastly lower than they are today. This frees up an enormous number of people to do OTHER jobs. Millions of people in the USA for instance out of a population of 350Million are employed in the resource extraction, energy, infrastructure business. If 75% of them are now out of work, guess what? They are going to jump at anything else.

I got up to this point and got really tire of repeating the same thing over, and over and over and over again with you seeming to be unable to grasp a very simple concept.


Yes, we need far fewer farmers but we need more pilots, we need fewer candle makers but we need more vehicle mechanics. With each new technology, more jobs are created while many are lost but you seem to focus exclusively on the jobs lost and assume that the supply of jobs keeps dwindling.

There is less manufacturing jobs in the US, not because of technology but because of economics(Cheaper labour, less taxes, less government oversight, less protection for workers etc...) If all the factories lost to say China were returned to the US, a number of jobs will be lost due to automation but alot of spin off industries will create jobs BECAUSE of that automation.

Relax wrote: demographics for men of military age is the true defining factor for a countries ability to fight.
Not even close... if we use your yard stick then Germany and Ethiopia would have the same ability to fight which is once again not even close... the ability to arm with proper equipment and maintain that military is the “defining factor for a countries ability to fight”. If I can army my troops with equipment that is generations better than what you can arm your troops with numbers become mostly irrelevant... and history is full of examples.
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Re: Build a Fleet!
Post by Sigs   » Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:42 am

Sigs
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Relax wrote:
Sigs wrote:If your argument had any value, the Yawata Strikes would not be presented as being so devastating… after all you would be replacing a bunch of machines… right?


Wait, that is exactly what RFC is doing. Waving his magic wand and saying industry will be back to normal in a year or two by buying the MACHINES from Beowulf etc.

And having your well educated workforce retrained to fill the gaps…They buy the equipment from Beowulf and if you read the book, they are training workers. That is the advantage of having your workforce highly educated, they need less time to step in to other jobs…If you have relatively advanced electrical knowledge it would be a lot easier to train you than it would be to get someone who thinks electricity is magic.


Relax wrote:Heck, he has Beowulf producing extremely sensitive high end technology in LARGE quantities in less than 6 months! 6! Starting from 0! 0!
I don't know, maybe they were "producing other extremely sensitive high end technology in LARGE quantities" before hand and they have the ability to do it there hence why they are doing it in Beowulf rather than Bolthole? Or did that go over your head too?


Relax wrote:Education? Say what? None here.

Do you think that they build the industry from the ground up in 6 months?

You seem to argue what you think the writer should have done… if you think it should be different then by all means, go ahead write a book but seeing as you don't have the first clue about anything to do with the military you would have serious problems...
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Re: Build a Fleet!
Post by Relax   » Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:48 am

Relax
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Sigs wrote:.... SNIP pilots.....


Actually, no we do not need pilots anymore.... Would be safer WITHOUT pilots. Anymore almost all fatal accidents are caused by human PILOT error and the few times it is mechanical, the pilots are useless anyways as everyone is FUBAR'd.

Mechanics? No. We need far FEWER mechanics than we used to why? The aviation industry is mature now. Engines that used to last hundreds of hours before replacement now last thousands. Hydraulic actuators that used to require complete replacement on a D check now go multiple times as long. Sensors that used to need replacing every 10,000 actuations have now been replaced by soft film capacitors with MTBF of 500,000 actuations! Number of mechanics hours has drastically dropped on airplanes cars etc etc etc. The technology has matured.

We need far fewer car mechanics too than we used to. Bridges that had engineered lifespans of 20 years got replaced with bridges that were engineered with lifespans of 50 years. Today we can build bridges with engineered lifespans near 1000 years, but do not due to $$$ of materials! If we replaced all bridges immediately with stainless steel effectively there would never be any maintenance required EVER. Not in our lifetimes and not in our great great great grandchildrens lifetimes either.

See, gets back to cost of energy. If energy is vastly lower, this allows us to build bridges that last far longer. This is called maturation in engineering land.

If we had ~~~ free energy ~~~ we would pave our roads in stainless steel, not concrete. Poof, goes all those hundreds of thousands of workers who do NOTHING in their lifetime except RESURFACE ROADS.

What technology that we take for granted would you like to discuss next that has seen a VAST decrease in number of workers? How about software? Hrmm.??? A nice brand spanking new technology field. There is currently so little demand for software technicians of base software that EVERY software company is desperately trying to force everyone to LEASE their products on a yearly basis. Why? Because Software has plateaued. Photoshop, upgrades? Not needed. 3d CAD programs, upgrades? Not needed and have not been needed for 10 years. CFD, etc, everything has been done close enough to perfection that no one needs new. Sound manipulation software? All that was done 15 years ago and everything since then has been glazing. All those hundreds of thousands of software technicians/engineers are now out of jobs who created that software initially and now the companies are looking for continuous revenue source, so guess what? Force yearly leases down peoples throats.

Fewer and fewer are buying new software as the old software is perfectly good. Pretty much everything everyone needs has been created. Sure, there are some nice integration features coming out on new software, but by and large, there is zero need to upgrade outside of the network power hungry folks who like to take control of everyones computer.

Want more relevant engineering examples in industry?
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Re: Build a Fleet!
Post by Relax   » Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:50 am

Relax
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Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:18 pm

Sigs wrote:And having your well educated workforce retrained to fill the gaps…They buy the equipment from Beowulf and if you read the book, they are training workers. That is the advantage of having your workforce highly educated, they need less time to step in to other jobs…If you have relatively advanced electrical knowledge it would be a lot easier to train you than it would be to get someone who thinks electricity is magic.


Last I checked they all GOT BLOWED UP.

KABLOOOOOOOOEEEEEY


:oops:
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Re: Build a Fleet!
Post by Relax   » Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:55 am

Relax
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Sigs wrote:I don't know, maybe they were "producing other extremely sensitive high end technology in LARGE quantities" before hand and they have the ability to do it there hence why they are doing it in Beowulf rather than Bolthole? Or did that go over your head too?


Yea, Beowulf was producing FTL nodes...

Oh wait, no they were not.

Yea, Beowulf was producing FTL transceivers.

Oh wait, no they were not.

Yea, Beowulf was producing micro fusion bottles...

Oh wait, no they were not.

Yea, Beowulf was producing grav pinch technology inside the micro fusion bottles and on the grav lensing on the warheads of missiles.

Oh wait, no they were not.

Come again?
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Re: Build a Fleet!
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Aug 26, 2015 1:00 am

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Sigs wrote:Nations dont generally do things out of the goodness of their hearts, they do things to promote their national interests and protect their citizens, sending untold millions or billions of their citizens to fight and die just because it is the right thing to do just doesn't happen. The war with the MA will end and as all democracies go, the government that won the war will have to adopt to peacetime or it will be replaced.


Just for reference as to why I believe Manticore -- and presumably the entire GA -- will stay in the "space patrol" business indefinitely:

Storm From the Shadows
Chapter Forty-four
Honor Harrington speaking: wrote:
"So if we get into an all-out war with the League, our strategy is going to have to have a very definite political element. We'll have to make it clear that the war wasn't our idea. We'll have to drive home the notion that we're not after any sort of punitive peace, that we're not trying to annex any additional territory, that we have no desire to conduct reprisals against people who don't want to fight us. We need to tell them, every step of the way, that what we really want is a negotiated settlement . . . and at the same time, we have to hit the League as a whole so hard that the fracture lines already there under the surface open right up. We have to split the League into separate sectors, into successor states, none of which have the sheer size and concentrated industrial power and manpower of the present league. Successor states that are our own size, or smaller. And we have to negotiate bilateral peace treaties with each of those successor states as they declare their willingness to opt out of the general conflict to get us to stop beating on their heads. And once we have those peace treaties, we have to not only honor them, but step beyond them. We need to use trade incentives, mutual defense pacts, educational assistance, every single thing we can think of to show them that we are—and to really be, not just pretend to be—the sort of neighbor and ally they'll want around. In other words, once we break the League militarily, once we splinter it into multiple, mutually independent star nations, we have to see to it that none of those star nations have any motive to fuse themselves back together and gang up on us all over again."


Manticore doesn't have to do everything by themselves, but they are explicitly planning for long-term involvement in Trade and Military assistance.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Build a Fleet!
Post by kzt   » Wed Aug 26, 2015 1:01 am

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If you have even a passing acquaintance with how weapon systems, aircraft, space vehicles or even medical systems are developed and tested before being put into regular service the issues are blatantly obvious. If not then maybe the magic wand David is waving isn't so obvious.

But essentially it amounts to the map is not the territory. Having the plans for an extremely complex system or device is not the same as knowing how to make copies that work. Seemingly trivial changes to highly complex systems often have second and third order effects that were both unanticipated and detrimental.
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Re: Build a Fleet!
Post by Relax   » Wed Aug 26, 2015 1:37 am

Relax
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Its like having Honeywell, L3 both being destroyed at the same time. Out of their thousands of employees, there are maybe 100 at most who know certain procedures for building said accelerometers that go into INS, that go into Excalibur rounds or JDAM bombs. If those guys DIE in a YAWATA strike(guess what happened), guys from DARPA/Naval Design Bureau(Those saved from Waylend station in the Honorverse), even though they KNOW said accelerometers exist and sheperded and oversaw the whole development process, they have NO IDEA how to create a solid state accelerometer able to withstand 20,000g's going out the barrel of a Howitzer!
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Re: Build a Fleet!
Post by Relax   » Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:02 am

Relax
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Ok, Historical data for number of US soldiers in uniform from 1950 through 2005.

http://www.heritage.org/research/report ... -1950-2003

Download the Excel file.
Add population
Graph percentage.

Over those years, the average is well over 1%. Only after 1990 did it drop down to 0.5% of the population from which this number has remained stable since then.

USA was playing global peace enforcer and a step in big kid. The proposed scenario is Manticore and friends whose population dwarfs Manticore by the way, is now the galaxy peace enforcer. USA's Economy was and still is the envy of the world, so why is this number(1% of pop) "impossible" in the Honorverse where the total population drain in basic infrastructure employment is vastly lower than it is today? IE internal GSP consumption to keep the machine running smoothly is vastly lower than it is today.

They also do not need to garrison planets, rather just hold the high orbitals and the locals can't do jack about it.
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Re: Build a Fleet!
Post by munroburton   » Wed Aug 26, 2015 9:05 am

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Relax wrote:They also do not need to garrison planets, rather just hold the high orbitals and the locals can't do jack about it.


Masada can't do jack about it. What about a planet with Core-level technological capabilities? I wouldn't be surprised to hear of some planets building facilities underground in order to produce ground-to-space missiles and their launchers.

Not ideal, because it effectively opts the planet out of the Eridani Edict(any attacker must strike its surface and probably repeatedly). But a 4-drive missile would still have at least 30 million km of powered range even if it spends two of them pushing out of the atmosphere - more than enough to swat flies in orbit.
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