Haven - cutting welfare

Haven had a problem that was much, much bigger than a simple welfare spending problem. Haven had, in addition to creating massive welfare state, absolutely gutted its education system such that the children of the people who grew up on the Dole would be unable to support themselves unless they received serious adult education.

In other words, they had not only created an incredibly expensive welfare program, they'd also created people who literally did not have the ability to support themselves in a modern Honorverse economy. They lacked the basic technological skills that are taken for granted in both Manticore and the Solarian League. There was no way to get these people off welfare without MORE short-term spending to give them the job skills that would allow them to contribute to the economy and earn a wage... and Haven simply did not have the money for it.

Thus, in order to escape its welfare trap Haven needed to make massive investments in education - investments that it didn't have the money for.

It was the war with Manticore that forced Haven to start educating its population, because the education gap - and the resulting technology gap - was the only reason Manticore was able to hold its own. Under wartime conditions, Haven could cut welfare and invest in education under the guise of wartime necessity. Rob S. Pierre did this brilliantly, actually.

saber964 wrote:Counting up all the benefits a person or family receives on welfare. Namely housing assistance, food assistance, child care assistance, utilities assistance and etc. etc. A person would have to make over $36,000 per year to equal welfare payments versus $18-20,000 per year working a minimum wage job full time and not receiving any of the above assistance.

Iirc, in Crook County Illinois the break even point (after taxes) is over $60k for a single person with two kids.

I have occasionally seen such,
detailing plights of certain groups of people.

HTM

cthia wrote:{snip - htm}
We constantly see a plethora of three minute commercials detailing the plight of homeless animals but not one detailing the plight of homeless people.

{snip- htm}

DDHvi wrote:Here is the question: Why is this method not used, either in fiction or reality

2 reasons essentially.

Prejudice.

And because it doesn´t look good enough in propaganda.


I could add that rightwing economists and politicians hates it because of how it makes their convictions look stupid when they are proven wrong.

Crown Loyalist wrote:Under wartime conditions, Haven could cut welfare and invest in education under the guise of wartime necessity. Rob S. Pierre did this brilliantly, actually.

Totally brilliant indeed!

Only thing that tarnishes it, is that if someone had had the guts to do it anyway, the reason for starting wars goes *poof*.

Tenshinai wrote:

Crown Loyalist wrote:Under wartime conditions, Haven could cut welfare and invest in education under the guise of wartime necessity. Rob S. Pierre did this brilliantly, actually.

Totally brilliant indeed!

Only thing that tarnishes it, is that if someone had had the guts to do it anyway, the reason for starting wars goes *poof*.

It doesn't really tarnish Pierre's accomplishment that much. He didn't start the war. He would have ended it if he could without completely disrupting his reforms. But he was able to use the war that was already there, and which already had popular support.

There are other things that do tarnish Pierre's accomplishment, of course, such as his Reign of Terror tactics.

cthia wrote:Many are lazy and just simply won't work. That's a fact.

No, that´s a popular but incorrect myth and prejudice. The fact that it DID work when tried didn´t make you think did it?

That´s also not the only time it has been tried.
Every time this method is tried, it works.

It´s only a matter of how well it works, and that usually depends mostly on how good or bad the economy is doing in total.

From what i know, the only time it came close to failing was when it was set up with such overdone bureaucracy "oversight/control" that people actually just went "screw this" because of all the extra paperwork(which also added a big chunk of cost for no good reason).

In fact, a majority of people on welfare (various countries) would rather work than not, even if it meant they got no extra money for it at all!

That at least in part is because it is a basic requirement in humans, in the DNA even, the desire to feel needed and part of something.

cthia wrote:I can't imagine people to be any different on Haven.

You might want to remember that USA is not the rule in the world today, it is the outlier in most cases.

cthia wrote:Many lack the education for the most menial job or the skills needed to apply, or to research the jobs. Or lack the proper clothing or dress skills, or interview skills.

Many are mentally handicapped. Some of those can work but require even more government programs to assist.

Many are substance abusers and dependents and can't work. That's a fact.

No, that´s a big bunch of prejudice that lacks grounding in facts.

Substance abuse is more common among the middleclass WITH jobs.

Most mental handicaps do not prevent people from working, even if it may slow them down, or at least slow down initial learning of the job.
(I live in a town with one of the oldest handicap schools in the world, so you see plenty of oddballs around, but a clear majority of them still have jobs. Of course, that has also resulted in me having 2 paralympics medalists on my facebook friend list.)

Lack of education can be fixed, and any smart society would and should make education easy to aquire.

Interview skills likewise, except it can be improved far more easily.

Finding jobs, that´s either a matter of getting people into networks, or providing a search service, both works, and when both are used it tend to lead to a very high degree of people ending up in steady jobs.
This however nearly always needs to be done on public resources because private business doing it doesn´t really have a reason to be effective at it.

Clothing and dress skills? Seriously...

If people don´t have clothing acceptable for a job, then whatever your welfare system is, it isn´t working.

And managers disregarding applicants ONLY because of "dress skills"? Lame. They deserve what they get, which almost certainly wont be the best applicants.

cthia wrote:Many have criminal records that prevent them from working because the government makes even a first time offender's mistake follow them and follow them and follow them...

Not "many". "Too many". But not "many".

cthia wrote:There truly is joy in giving.

Yes, but not in receiving, because most people hate being in that situation. This is one of the reasons why welfare(on a basic level at least) should generally not be based on private involvement.

SWM wrote:It doesn't really tarnish Pierre's accomplishment that much. He didn't start the war. He would have ended it if he could without completely disrupting his reforms. But he was able to use the war that was already there, and which already had popular support.

There are other things that do tarnish Pierre's accomplishment, of course, such as his Reign of Terror tactics.

I was a bit too vague with how i wrote that, sorry.

I meant more on a general level that it had to come as far as being an emergency action for it to be done at all, and for it to work out well.
Despite how it could have been done BEFORE the first war with Manticore, much more easily, and hence could probably have been done successfully then as well, by doing a more gradual shift, using a lot more "carrots" instead of the "red alert!" rallying message of the war.

OTOH, the Malign could probably have prevented it from succeeding.

Tenshinai wrote:
Clothing and dress skills? Seriously...

If people don´t have clothing acceptable for a job, then whatever your welfare system is, it isn´t working.

And managers disregarding applicants ONLY because of "dress skills"? Lame. They deserve what they get, which almost certainly wont be the best applicants.

Actually, Tenshinai, in the US there are several charities specifically aimed at providing gently used (but rather modern and clean) dress clothing to those who require it to get a job. Proper appearance IS a factor here for many jobs (Be it service industry or an office job) and many who have been forced into homelessness no longer have the ability to get a shower, haircut, shave, and throw on a decent set of clean "dress casuals" or a suit to go to a job interview. Such is seen as a major impediment for people in such a condition to get gainful employment, and the Charities involved have solid metrics from the results backing their efforts. In addition to the outward appearance, people in such situations also are reported to feel a self esteem boost in job interviews, which also assists is attaining a job.

But, as you say, the US is not the rest of the world, and expectations, needs and situations are different everywhere. Giving a Rwandan a shower, shave and a suit probably wouldn't help their situation anywhere near as much as we see in the US.

Tenshinai wrote:I was a bit too vague with how i wrote that, sorry.

I meant more on a general level that it had to come as far as being an emergency action for it to be done at all, and for it to work out well.
Despite how it could have been done BEFORE the first war with Manticore, much more easily, and hence could probably have been done successfully then as well, by doing a more gradual shift, using a lot more "carrots" instead of the "red alert!" rallying message of the war.

OTOH, the Malign could probably have prevented it from succeeding.

Assuming that the carrots could have lured the Dolists back to work and that Haven could have avoided running out of money before the increased tax revenue and reduced dole expenses turned their economy around.

IIRC the BLS was already indexed to inflation so they couldn't just have printed extra currency to tide them over and provide incentive money to lure Dolists back to work.


The emergency that was the war let them cut BLS payment (not just cut the greater than interest rate increases, but actually cut back on benefits) without mass rioting. Without the emergency I'm not sure than even a decade before the war there was enough money in the Haven economy to have pulled themselves back out of the multi-decadinal trap they'd put themselves into...
But it obviously didn't help that trying to do so would have reduced the political power of the Dolist Managers; so there were powerful forces that would have acted against any attempt to lure significant numbers off the Dole.