The Maya Crisis...

JohnRoth wrote:

kzt wrote:It was also done as a constitutional amendment, which isn't subject to the same blocking.

akira.taylor wrote:At least when the US goes for a constitutional amendment, it starts with an Act of Congress (which the President can veto). Now, does the Solarian Constitution work the same way? Weber might know. [If that act is to convene a convention, the only check on the convention is the fact that states have to ratify amendments.]

Anyway, the stated reason for the amendment was to avoid any risk of veto when the Edict is invoked.

Article V of the U.S. Constitution doesn't appear to allow for a Presidential veto. It doesn't seem like it would be all that meaningful anyway, since the resolution requires a 2/3rds majority in both houses.

Article I, Section 7, third paragraph ("Every order, resolution, or vote to which the concurrence of the Senate an the House of Representatives may be necessary..."). I had, however, forgotten the 2/3rds requirement for amendments. The President could veto, but it is unlikely that Congress wound't over ride the veto (although some one might have changed their mind).

akira.taylor wrote:

kzt wrote:It was also done as a constitutional amendment, which isn't subject to the same blocking.

akira.taylor wrote:At least when the US goes for a constitutional amendment, it starts with an Act of Congress (which the President can veto). Now, does the Solarian Constitution work the same way? Weber might know. [If that act is to convene a convention, the only check on the convention is the fact that states have to ratify amendments.]

Anyway, the stated reason for the amendment was to avoid any risk of veto when the Edict is invoked.

JohnRoth wrote:Article V of the U.S. Constitution doesn't appear to allow for a Presidential veto. It doesn't seem like it would be all that meaningful anyway, since the resolution requires a 2/3rds majority in both houses.

Article I, Section 7, third paragraph ("Every order, resolution, or vote to which the concurrence of the Senate an the House of Representatives may be necessary..."). I had, however, forgotten the 2/3rds requirement for amendments. The President could veto, but it is unlikely that Congress wound't over ride the veto (although some one might have changed their mind).

JohnRoth is correct. The President of the United States cannot veto a proposed amendment to the Constitution, if passed by a 2/3rds super-majority of both the House of Representatives and the Senate, it then goes straight to the states and if ratified by a 3/4ths super-majority of the states, it becomes an actual amendment to the Constitution.
Proposing amendments
Ratification of amendments
The Supreme Court has ruled unamimously that the President of the United States has no formal role in amending the Constitution.
Hollingsworth v. Virginia

Vince wrote:

JohnRoth is correct. The President of the United States cannot veto a proposed amendment to the Constitution, if passed by a 2/3rds super-majority of both the House of Representatives and the Senate, it then goes straight to the states and if ratified by a 3/4ths super-majority of the states, it becomes an actual amendment to the Constitution.
Proposing amendments
Ratification of amendments
The Supreme Court has ruled unamimously that the President of the United States has no formal role in amending the Constitution.
Hollingsworth v. Virginia

Checks and Balances.... it's one thing that the framers got close to right. If they are not there, everything falls apart so easily.

Vince wrote:<SNIP>
JohnRoth is correct. The President of the United States cannot veto a proposed amendment to the Constitution, if passed by a 2/3rds super-majority of both the House of Representatives and the Senate, it then goes straight to the states and if ratified by a 3/4ths super-majority of the states, it becomes an actual amendment to the Constitution.
Proposing amendments
Ratification of amendments
The Supreme Court has ruled unamimously that the President of the United States has no formal role in amending the Constitution.
Hollingsworth v. Virginia

Huh. Sure not how I read the rules - but I guess that is how we've always done it.

Aprapo of nothing, but that little exception really needs to be amended into the US constitution.

akira.taylor wrote:

Vince wrote:<SNIP>
JohnRoth is correct. The President of the United States cannot veto a proposed amendment to the Constitution, if passed by a 2/3rds super-majority of both the House of Representatives and the Senate, it then goes straight to the states and if ratified by a 3/4ths super-majority of the states, it becomes an actual amendment to the Constitution.
Proposing amendments
Ratification of amendments
The Supreme Court has ruled unamimously that the President of the United States has no formal role in amending the Constitution.
Hollingsworth v. Virginia

Huh. Sure not how I read the rules - but I guess that is how we've always done it.

John is correct. However, the President can use the bully pulpit to lobby against the amendment.
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/h ... shing.html

Tales from the Bully Pulpit is fast becoming a collector's comic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tales_fro ... lly_Pulpit

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8897 ... lly_Pulpit

lelder wrote:Back to Maya, I don't recall any actions by the Malign in the area, but I am sure that they are operating in the area and will begin to move. They may have a number of sleepers in area and will move in new agents. They may manipulate the SLN or leak parts of "the Sepoy Option" but will certainly make themselves a problem. This is their backdoor and the path to the Haven sector.

The only problem with this, is that the Sepoy Option (so far as we know) wasn't started by a MAlign Governor, simply an ambitious one who saw signs of the League starting to fall apart.

And that recruitment into knowledge of Sepoy is pretty highly restricted, so it's unlikely that MAlign agents have picked up on it. And it's a bit of an onion deception, the Sepoy Option is the very core, but it's wrapped in layers of decoys and deceptions. Barregos has high approval ratings, OFS doesn't really like him (but they also know they can't off him, without the sector going to hell), and he's been doing 'good' as far as he's claiming (ie: trolling Erewhon into coming back to the League, etc)

MAlign might be able to catch whiffs of stuff from the Erewhon side, particularly since they've been trying for a while to break Erewhon away from Manticore and back to TechnoDyne of Yildun. Then the whole events in Congo, Tiberian, etc.... but MAlign have been watching Erewhon for a while. So they've probably got sleepers that may just be involved in building the 'super' ships that Barregos and company aren't truthfully reporting about.

Somtaaw wrote:

lelder wrote:Back to Maya, I don't recall any actions by the Malign in the area, but I am sure that they are operating in the area and will begin to move. They may have a number of sleepers in area and will move in new agents. They may manipulate the SLN or leak parts of "the Sepoy Option" but will certainly make themselves a problem. This is their backdoor and the path to the Haven sector.

The only problem with this, is that the Sepoy Option (so far as we know) wasn't started by a MAlign Governor, simply an ambitious one who saw signs of the League starting to fall apart.

And that recruitment into knowledge of Sepoy is pretty highly restricted, so it's unlikely that MAlign agents have picked up on it. And it's a bit of an onion deception, the Sepoy Option is the very core, but it's wrapped in layers of decoys and deceptions. Barregos has high approval ratings, OFS doesn't really like him (but they also know they can't off him, without the sector going to hell), and he's been doing 'good' as far as he's claiming (ie: trolling Erewhon into coming back to the League, etc)

MAlign might be able to catch whiffs of stuff from the Erewhon side, particularly since they've been trying for a while to break Erewhon away from Manticore and back to TechnoDyne of Yildun. Then the whole events in Congo, Tiberian, etc.... but MAlign have been watching Erewhon for a while. So they've probably got sleepers that may just be involved in building the 'super' ships that Barregos and company aren't truthfully reporting about.

One of the Detweiller sections says explicitly that they're expecting Barregos to kick off a wave of OFS sectors defecting, many of which are being set up by MAlign agents.

Whether they've actually got an agent close to Barregos is something that hasn't been mentioned as far as I remember. The MAlign could simply be taking advantage of something they know about, or they may have assets on Barregos' policy level.

Barregos, on the other hand, is going to try delaying his official defection as long as possible, which suggests that the MAlign doesn't really have assets close enough to know his plans.

[quote="Somtaaw"]
And that recruitment into knowledge of Sepoy is pretty highly restricted, so it's unlikely that MAlign agents have picked up on it. And it's a bit of an onion deception, the Sepoy Option is the very core, but it's wrapped in layers of decoys and deceptions. Barregos has high approval ratings, OFS doesn't really like him (but they also know they can't off him, without the sector going to hell), and he's been doing 'good' as far as he's claiming (ie: trolling Erewhon into coming back to the League, etc)
[quote]
that is what is claimed, but the fact that bunch of people got killed manning SLN ships that were retroactively declared to be Erewhon has holes you can drive a truck through. We can start with that fact that SLN officers (and possibly NCOs) are essentially in the family business. So there will be senior SLN officers who know fully well that those ships were SLN ships because their young relative wrote to Aunt Joan the retired SLN rear admiral and told her all about their assignment to the new SLN ship, right before they were killed in action.

Plus there is going to be constant churn as officers and sailors arrive and leave the forces in Maya.

Somtaaw wrote:And that recruitment into knowledge of Sepoy is pretty highly restricted, so it's unlikely that MAlign agents have picked up on it. And it's a bit of an onion deception, the Sepoy Option is the very core, but it's wrapped in layers of decoys and deceptions. Barregos has high approval ratings, OFS doesn't really like him (but they also know they can't off him, without the sector going to hell), and he's been doing 'good' as far as he's claiming (ie: trolling Erewhon into coming back to the League, etc)

kzt wrote:that is what is claimed, but the fact that bunch of people got killed manning SLN ships that were retroactively declared to be Erewhon has holes you can drive a truck through. We can start with that fact that SLN officers (and possibly NCOs) are essentially in the family business. So there will be senior SLN officers who know fully well that those ships were SLN ships because their young relative wrote to Aunt Joan the retired SLN rear admiral and told her all about their assignment to the new SLN ship, right before they were killed in action.

[b]Plus there is going to be constant churn as officers and sailors arrive and leave the forces in Maya.[b/]

I added some boldface to the quotes, my comments reflect on those bits.

Somtaaw, the Malign doesn't need to have any knowledge of "Sepoy" to understand how they are manipulating the League into a basket case. What they need to look for are the people who are putting plans in place for imminent civil war. For that, they just have to keep an eye out for those people who argue for sanity and integrity in public policy. A lot of whom wound up dead before anyone in the general League took them seriously.

Those are called "indicators"; other indicators--they are arranging a relationship with someone who has better tech than the SLN. Detweiller wanted that for himself, but he is very aware that the Erewhonese have that tech. Barregos also enforces the anti-slavery laws; and he has managed to recruit a top-flight Naval officer to head his detachment. So, I think Malign already has assets in Maya somewhere, even if all they do is a low level job. No one is going to be more aware of "attitude" and "public opinion" than Colin.

Since Barregos' action will actually help the Alignment Plan (without being capable of de-railing it) the Detweiler Group is actually looking forward to using Maya's rebellion to further their own ends; after all, Phase III isn't supposed to start for another couple of centuries, right? 20 more books or so. . . ..



kzt, I have been thinking about how little we know about Erewhon's naval forces for awhile. They sent a dozen DN's and screening elements to 8th Fleet for Buttercup, which ought to leave about twice that at home, yes? And got their gear back intact afterward. HOS says they acquired a[n additional?] squadron of King Williams, and some (vague) number of Andurils during the ceasefire. So, is that around a dozen? Adding to their previous two dozen? 36 or so wallers, with 5000 to 6000 personnel. Each. . . .

So, if Rozsak wants to drop a few (like, 5 or 10 thousand) Naval personnel, FF officers and enlisted with a bad mark or two for complaining about OFS, transtellers in general, recruited from those who come from the shell or the Verge, mostly . .. . well, Rozsak was supposed to have been assigned to some central bureau or other, before ending up replacing the fellow heading up the Maya detachment. With access to Naval records, and some creative marketing, he could have found a lot of people who would like to be working for Erewhon for awhile.

Who may not care much for the Fleet, or the CNO.

Regards,

Rob