Mages and Wild Wizards (spoilers)

RFC says that _Carandosa_ can trigger the wild-wizard talent - more accurately, force open the channels that carry the power - without putting the wizard through a life-or-death trauma, but that it will not be as strong as it would have been had the wizard come by it naturally. He doesn't say anything about _humans_ being able to do it.

He also says that it was Herrick who was the wild wizard, not Torren:

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... essa/226/1

PeterZ wrote:< snip >

As for the wild wizard crisis, recall that it comes to the wild wizard when he faces life and death decision. Does he accept the gift and proceed or reject it and die? At least that is my take on Wencit's description in SotS. Exercising wild magic means letting the fundamental power of the universe change your entire being. That description suggests the wild wizard had that ability all his life. He simply had no reason powerful enough to embrace such a dire alteration of his being. It stands to reason that there are wild wizards that never face a situation dire enough. To bring about that crisis. I believe RFC suggested that the Carnadosans could artificially draw out a wild wizard talent. This supports the idea that wild wizardry exists as a potential in many more people than is actually manifested.

Mages on the other hand can use small parts of their essences to exercise their talents in small ways before without altering themselves. At one point their ability to tap into their life essence can kill them and they do face their crisis.

Consider that Torrent Shieldarm was a wild wizard and Kenhoden is not, yet they both fight with a precognition skill. Several times Kenhoden is described as striking where opponent would be. Precognition is a mage talent, no? Also, didn't the description of Torren's fighting reflect that same precognition? I believe that's a yes to both questions.

http://forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6337&p=163837&hilit=toren+wizard#p163837

He says that Herrick was artificially made a wild wizard. The Ottovaran Emporers have always been wizards. I suspect that most have been wild wizards too. In any case Torren was either a wand wizard or a wild wizard. I suspect that he was a wild wizard. The description of Toren's death suggests that Toren survived his battle with the arch-wizard until some time after his Guard died around him. That does not sound like a wand wizard against a powerful wild wizard, but two wild wizards of comparable power.

Louis R wrote:RFC says that _Carandosa_ can trigger the wild-wizard talent - more accurately, force open the channels that carry the power - without putting the wizard through a life-or-death trauma, but that it will not be as strong as it would have been had the wizard come by it naturally. He doesn't say anything about _humans_ being able to do it.

He also says that it was Herrick who was the wild wizard, not Torren:

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... essa/226/1

PeterZ wrote:< snip >

As for the wild wizard crisis, recall that it comes to the wild wizard when he faces life and death decision. Does he accept the gift and proceed or reject it and die? At least that is my take on Wencit's description in SotS. Exercising wild magic means letting the fundamental power of the universe change your entire being. That description suggests the wild wizard had that ability all his life. He simply had no reason powerful enough to embrace such a dire alteration of his being. It stands to reason that there are wild wizards that never face a situation dire enough. To bring about that crisis. I believe RFC suggested that the Carnadosans could artificially draw out a wild wizard talent. This supports the idea that wild wizardry exists as a potential in many more people than is actually manifested.

Mages on the other hand can use small parts of their essences to exercise their talents in small ways before without altering themselves. At one point their ability to tap into their life essence can kill them and they do face their crisis.

Consider that Torrent Shieldarm was a wild wizard and Kenhoden is not, yet they both fight with a precognition skill. Several times Kenhoden is described as striking where opponent would be. Precognition is a mage talent, no? Also, didn't the description of Torren's fighting reflect that same precognition? I believe that's a yes to both questions.

Re-read the description of why the crown was hidden instead of destroyed.... I'm pretty sure the sword is so incredibly powerful that even Wencit in his prime would have trouble destroying it w/o killing himself. And as the crown seems to have been designed to detect black wizards, the sword seems to be designed to make the wielder invulnerable to wizardry. Remember Wencit's remark to the black wizard once the pommel gem was given to Kenhoden. I'm further guessing that the sword wasn't totally broken -- the reason swords felt so natural to Kenhoden and the reason he can strike where he can't see is that his mind and soul are connected to the formerly broken sword. The chaos in his mind was likely at least partly a result of the sword being broken.

All in all, the Sword of the South, in his hands is most likely THE method created by Ottovar and Gwyntha for destroying rebellious wizards -- wild or not once Ottovar and Gwyntha's descendants were no longer overwhelmingly powerful wizards in their own right.

Morris

PeterZ wrote:http://forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6337&p=163837&hilit=toren+wizard#p163837

He says that Herrick was artificially made a wild wizard. The Ottovaran Emporers have always been wizards. I suspect that most have been wild wizards too. In any case Torren was either a wand wizard or a wild wizard. I suspect that he was a wild wizard. The description of Toren's death suggests that Toren survived his battle with the arch-wizard until some time after his Guard died around him. That does not sound like a wand wizard against a powerful wild wizard, but two wild wizards of comparable power.

Louis R wrote:RFC says that _Carandosa_ can trigger the wild-wizard talent - more accurately, force open the channels that carry the power - without putting the wizard through a life-or-death trauma, but that it will not be as strong as it would have been had the wizard come by it naturally. He doesn't say anything about _humans_ being able to do it.

He also says that it was Herrick who was the wild wizard, not Torren:

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... essa/226/1

< snip >

There is no specific textev pointing to Torren as a Wild Wizard like there is about Herrick. There are however several references to Kenhodan potentially being a Wild Wizard and at least the implication that Torren, while not one, had the potential but it hadn't been triggered.

One reference is when Wencit boils water for tea on his sword blade. IIRC Kenhodan senses the wizardry and Wencit tells him that he knew someone who could sense wild magic but never showed any ability to use it. I suspect that he was talking about Torren.

Then there is when Kenhodan is hit by the Dragon Acid and Wencit mentions that he has the same allergy.

There are probably a couple more references in the text that imply the same but there is none that Torren was a Wild Wizard. I suspect that he has the potential but when he was Torren it was never awakened, perhaps deliberately, so it could be awakened for the coming battle in this generation.

just my $0.02

Just remember, Wencit has also said that there's no way to tell if someone is a potential wild wizard until they have the crisis.

Umm...hasn't he?

I am curious about the 'rage like' whatever that kenholden experiences when fighting. Could this be a precursor of wild wizardry?

My personal theory about mages is they are a change Wencit and the council made to human genetics to intentionaly remove wizardry from Norfressa. They didn't want the colonies to repeat the mistakes of the wizard wars and the fall. The only way to accomplish that goal is to remove humans ability to access the art.

This idea would explain why wizardry and magecraft are mutually exclusive. Mage talent is simply an alteration of the genes that normally produce wizards. It also explains why Wencit never tried to form a new council. Wencit would have known that without wizards there is no way Norfressa could hold off the Cardossans, but he never tried to train new wizards. Wencit was simply waiting for the alternative he created to mature. Wencit knew that the mage talent gene was dominant and would eventually overwelm the traditional wizard gene.

Although I prefer the idea of the White Council creating mages deliberately it could also be the mage mutation of the wizard gene was an accidental consequence of the War. A consequence that Wencit recognized and has spent the time since the fall encouraging.

Either way I think we're going to find out that much like the hradani genes for the old rage are dying out with the evolution of the new rage; the human genes for wand wizardry are dying out in favor of the mage gene in Norfressan humans.

Your post gave me a good deal of food for thought, Morris. So, let's see here....

Wencit states that there are no indications that someone is a wild wizard until he has his crisis.

In Wencit's millennia of life he has only encountered 1 individual that could sense wild magic that was not himself a wild wizard. I am assuming that Kenhodan and Torren are the same individual for this purpose.

One then tentatively concludes that Torren was not a wild wizard.

Mages have a crisis.

Kenhodan exhibits one of the mages talents in a very focused way; precognition in combat. One assumes that Torren also had this talent.

We do not know that Torren did not have a mage crisis. We only know he did not have wild wizard crisis.

All of these data points and tentative conclusions suggest that Torren was the cleft point for mages.

That means that anyone with a mage talent came from Torren's line or at least from one of his siblings.

Let's proceed to the second line of speculation.....

Kenhodan displays a powerful anger that almost consumes him. One might call it a rage. The text suggests that this was part of Torren's make up.

Torren had a brother that went to the dark side. One might assume that Herrick also had this rage.

One might assume that Herrick also had the core genetic template that leads to Torren's other talents, like precognition in battle.

The Rage was inflicted upon the hradanai by the Carnadosans.

Carnadosa ignited wild wizardry in Herrick.

Might one not conclude it possible that Herrick was the core genetic template used to inflict the Rage upon the hradani?

If such conclusions and assumptions have merit, then would not the combination of the genetic base Carnadosa provided for the hradani refined in Norfressa, the direct link to the magic field of the hradani and the mage talents refined for 1,000 years from the direct line of Ottovar be super concentrated? As we see with Gwynna, it is super concentrated.

So, while the hradani are not of the line of Ottovar, they might share key genetic similarities with the last Ottovaran Emperor. The mages are scions of Ottovar and Gwynytha. Gwynna then is Semkirk's long ranged snipe aimed right between Carnadosa's eyes. He shoots from so far away and from such cover that Carnadosa never sees it coming until it's too late.

Which gets us to my belief that Wencit is the avatar of Semkirk. He might or might not also be the child of Gwynna transported back in time. I suspect that he is Gwynna and Kenhodan's son as well as Semkirk's avatar. Born of just after the success of Semkirk's snipe, Wencit travels back in time to set up the shot.

Morris Darkstar wrote:Re-read the description of why the crown was hidden instead of destroyed.... I'm pretty sure the sword is so incredibly powerful that even Wencit in his prime would have trouble destroying it w/o killing himself. And as the crown seems to have been designed to detect black wizards, the sword seems to be designed to make the wielder invulnerable to wizardry. Remember Wencit's remark to the black wizard once the pommel gem was given to Kenhoden. I'm further guessing that the sword wasn't totally broken -- the reason swords felt so natural to Kenhoden and the reason he can strike where he can't see is that his mind and soul are connected to the formerly broken sword. The chaos in his mind was likely at least partly a result of the sword being broken.

All in all, the Sword of the South, in his hands is most likely THE method created by Ottovar and Gwyntha for destroying rebellious wizards -- wild or not once Ottovar and Gwyntha's descendants were no longer overwhelmingly powerful wizards in their own right.

Morris