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Interstellar Trade

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Re: Interstellar Trade
Post by Olegreyowl   » Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:48 am

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kzt wrote: Some things just have to be accepted to make the plot work, so just accept it and move on.


I'm not trying to poke holes in MWW plots. I love his stuff. :) I've got them in hardback, paperback, ebook and signed leather-bound.

I'm just looking for people to help me find a good answer so I can feel confident that eventually we'll see "space truckers" and pirates. Arrr

I LIKE the concept of the battered tramp freighter looking to trade and see the next horizon. *cough Firefly* :D
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Re: Interstellar Trade
Post by kzt   » Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:55 am

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Olegreyowl wrote:Yes that's exactly what has always bothered me. How do the less developed systems find anything to market that isn't abundantly available in the already developed systems except unique biological resources. I just hate the thought that one day the only real tramp freighters that run the space lanes will have "Coca-Cola" on the hull. :cry:

Obvious answers:
People. As wives, servants or slaves.
Tourism.
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Re: Interstellar Trade
Post by Kytheros   » Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:19 am

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There's a reason why less developed systems tend to stay less developed and poor. If they have no significant export product and no ships to use as traders - and that's usually going to be something unique to the local biosphere, some kind of tree that provides special wood, skins/furs of local creatures, etc, that while locally common is something that can be sold as a luxury item elsewhere, they have little to use to get outside help to improve things.

Otherwise, I expect that most low-development systems with nothing else to trade will trade refined rare metals that are useful or valuable in industry/jewelry/etc. Sure, they can probably be found lots of places, but if somebody's willing to do the hard work so you don't have to - and they're not in a position to demand full market value in trade - there's no real point in not buying below what it'd cost you to do the extraction yourself.
Also, they probably have some sort of fuel infrastructure to let traders use to top off. Hydrogen is cheap, and transport is efficient, but topping off when you can is still generally a good idea - and would give a small balance to the local system.
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Re: Interstellar Trade
Post by Relax   » Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:17 am

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Other than the fact there basically is no such thing as a rare mineral in the Honorverse and likewise there is no such thing as "hard work" to extract said mineral as energy is ~~~ free via fusion.

Throw rocks at a wedge, instantly turns rocks into powder. Stuff said powder into an electrostatic sorter and viola, instant powdered and sorted minerals. Add a spark gap to keep any free oxygen from glomming onto your materials and viola, perfect sorted material. All you have to do is break up the few remaining iums from the ides as there is no atmosphere in space.

So, that leaves, slavery in its various forms(sex, servants, and mercs), tourism when competing against thousands of planets... :roll: and the possibility of rare trees that have artistic flavor in their wood along with the slight possibility you may have some local food/fauna which may possibly be wanted elsewhere which lets face it will be a fleeting proposition as if it is worth anything someone will quickly grab a few and grow it elsewhere. Local population can try to sell art as well which some sucker may find interesting(tourism). Otherwise they have bupkiss to pay for tech from outside sources.
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Re: Interstellar Trade
Post by noblehunter   » Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:59 am

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Just because anything can be made anywhere doesn't mean it will. If an industry needs a market of 50-60 billion to be viable, there isn't going to be a factory for it around every planet. If there's any time sensitive aspect to the product, it won't be all around one planet either. Who wants to wait at least six months for their stuff due to three months transit time? I imagine patents will also serve to foster trade. Any developed system could build a shiny new anti-grav unit but if Technodyne has the patent, you'll have to ship it from their factories (or buy the pirate version being made in Silesia).

Speaking of Silesia, political instability is another reason; no point building a factory in orbit if the local system government can't keep pirates away from it; or will hire the pirates to steal it from you.

Likewise, just because the resources are there doesn't mean people will want the job to extract them. How many Montanans would be willing to go work the asteroids? Even if it isn't hard work, they still have to live in the asteroid belt. Especially if the local market isn't big enough to sustain the infrastructure.

Or the planet just stays poor. Between Talbott and pre-Alliance Grayson, I get the impression interstellar trade has a sign on it that says: you must be this developed to ride. Huge chunks of the Verge just don't cut it.
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Re: Interstellar Trade
Post by cthia   » Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:54 pm

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Now developed systems are assumed to have a well established industrial system for basic and advanced manufactured goods. Only truly specialized goods are not easily made in the average fully developed system and would necessitate trade. But what would the average/below-average system trade to the specialty systems to get these items? I mean the specialty system would be assumed to have a resource pool that includes it's own asteroid belts/ring systems therefore, raw materials would plentiful. Manufactured goods? Well, unless shipping costs are practically zero it would be cheaper to make it themselves. But we know shipping isn't almost free, freighters can take weeks/months to get from system to system in most sci-fi universes, have reasonable sized crews, huge capital investments in the vessel, and ongoing maintenance of the vessel. "Labor costs are cheaper in less developed systems" you say? Even today, automation is making manufacturing less and less labor intensive, plus just about every sci-fi universe has some variant of AI/robots/nanobots that would facilitate inexpensive local manufacturing.


This is interesting speculation and admirable preconceptions and foresight. I commend you.

I have lots of experience in the business world. At least two cents worth. So here's a penny of it.

First, you must not overlook the motivation of richly developed worlds to peddle their wares. Planets that have natural green thumbs that can grow food out of thought (lol) would have a surplus of food stuffs needing to be sold. Profit is the driving theme. Companies on these planets need to open up new markets to sell all of this surplus. Poorer planets are certainly among these markets. And using present Earth business as a model, I imagine shipping costs, for the most part, are absorbed by these companies needing this export market just as our own big grocers absorb their own shipping costs, for the most part.

I also imagine that these companies, likewise to the model here on Earth, set up local distribution nodes. Poorer planets out in the Verge are being served from these foreign distribution nodes set up on their planet. Their order is filled from these local distribution nodes circumventing the six month order time in all cases except "out of stock."

Also, the government of these poorer planets offer tax incentives to companies to bring these distribution nodes on planet. And the rich companies, like Hauptman Enterprises have their own motivation, grounded in profit, to open businesses on these poorer planets, with the promise of cheaper labor and tax incentives. Employment opportunities and the income of these off-world business ventures impacts these poorer economies. Manticore, Haven and the League need their export business. In the case of Manticore, they can offer their exported goods much cheaper because of the wormhole junctions, thus undercutting many other worlds in the process. It's called "shipping wars" - where poorer planets see no shipping charges. We see that here on Earth - the offer of free shipping on import orders.

Also, don't fail to acknowledge that even most poorer systems will undoubtedly have something unique to that system or will at least be driven to find their own niche market. I am certain that some systems are handicapped in that regard and has to offer back breaking incentives to companies to bring their businesses there. I can imagine many planets are taken advantage of in that respect. I imagine that is part and parcel of what Dresden's problem is and part of Olga Boltitz' ire.

Many goods will be manufactured for richer planets on poorer planets. I can imagine that some goods sold on Manticore by Manticoran companies are actually "Made on Dresden," "Made on Torch," stamped on the label. And that may not necessarily be a bad thing if the Dresdeners are producing it cheaper because of cheaper labor and offering much better quality because of generations of pride, craftsmanship and the need to survive.

I often wonder how patents work in the Honorverse. Some poorer planets do have geniuses born there and produce economically valuable patents as well. And if I were the head of a poor planet, I'd tax the sale of technology born of my planet. Some poor planets will conceivably have foodstuffs indigenous only to their planet. Such as rich seas of seafood delicacies. And even raw resources right on-planet undeveloped because of the lack of large expensive machinery of these richer planets that may have something like a Grand-Grand Canyon, rich with some of the most valuable resources that other worlds need that are more efficiently and conveniently accessed, via location, relatively compared to other production operations - resources offered from other than asteroids. There are volcanos and the bottom of oceans as well, that we here on present Earth have not tapped because of the limitations of technology.

And although Grayson may not be considered a poor planet, I wonder how much foodstuffs to supplement their own agriculture needs, Grayson imports because of their concentrated metals.

And I can also imagine that many planets can offer specialty items that are "hand made." Technology can't always do a better job.

Nice thread.


Late Edit:
I am recalling a conversation brought up by my sister, who hates sci-fi, and is a leather aficionado. She is into nice leathers for her home. Perhaps you'd be surprised of the variety of creatures fueling the leather market. Expensive cars do have much nicer leathers. My sister made a remark once, "I wonder what sort of animal on other planets I can get a better leather from?" Poor planets may have species indigenous only to them that can produce leather shoes that fetch astronomical prices.

"Is that a pair of "Dreds" you're wearing? (Dresden)
"Is that a Torchite purse?!"

So your ready to get a quality, genuine leather jacket, fine. What type of leather are you going to get? Huh, I thought leather was, uh, leather, right? Wrong! The reason you see so many different prices for leather jackets is because of the different types of leather that they use to make them. There are 3 basic differences to leather.
One is how it’s tanned and treated. There are several different ways they do that, all of them having strong and weak points. Two is what part of the animal did the leather come from, and has it been split, sanded or stitched together. But before all that comes the most basic step, what animal did the leather come from.
Any hide of an animal can be called leather. You can take the feathers off of a chicken, tan the hide and call it genuine leather. But do you want a leather jacket made from chickens? No, I did not think so! Here I will discuss the most common types of animals used for good quality leather jackets and other leather products.
Cow hide
Cow hide is the most common type of leather used for leather jackets, vest, pants, dusters and biker bags. It’s made from,,,,,cows. All kinds of cows; dairy cows, beef cows, females and males. Often it’s made from cows we don’t normally see around the USA, because a lot of leather is made in different countries.
But for the most part a cow is a cow, pretty much all the same. They also use heifers, which are young cows. Leather made from an adult cow taken from the prime areas of the animal are some of the best leather you can find. It can be a little stiff, depending on how it was treated. But it is very durable, able to withstand a lot of abuse. A good cowhide leather jacket is a real prize.
Buffalo hide
Hide from a buffalo is thick and surprisingly soft. It often has a more pronounced leather pattern, that is deeper groves and cuts that make leather look the way it is. Buffalo hide is used in everything cow hide is, plus more rugged items like shoes and rugs. Full length leather dusters are often made from buffalo. A buffalo leather jacket will last a lifetime.
Pig skin
Most people are surprised to learn a lot of leather items and jackets are made of pig skin, not just footballs! It might not sound good to say you have a pig skin jacket on, but the fact is pig hide can be tougher than cow hide. It can be a little stiffer than cowhide, and is about the same strength. Pig skin is often used in leather jackets, and most people have no idea they are wearing pig skin. It really is a quality skin.
Sheep skin
The skin of a sheep is soft, smooth and light. Often it is used with the wool left on for wool coats and vest, as well as rugs. It is not as rugged or strong as the above mentioned hides, and should not be used to make a motorcycle jacket or other hard wearing items. However they do make great looking fashion jackets and trench coats, as well as pants and leather shirts (yes they do make leather shirts).
It also is used a lot for gloves, purses and so on. Cheap motorcycle leather jackets are made by using sheepskin hides. That is why you can find cheap jackets that are real leather and look the same as others much higher in price. It is because the hide is cheaper. However again if it is a fashion type of jacket made more for looks and not hard wear they are great.
Lamb skin
For some reason a lot of places tout “genuine lambskin leather” as a hard to find leather that must be great. Truth is lamb skin is very common, it’s very thin and very weak. It’s also very smooth and soft, so it is a good choice for small purses, driving gloves and other small, fashion type articles. But it’s way to weak for jackets, vest and bags.
Now then, those are the most common types of animals used for leather. However there are many other animals, reptiles and even fish that are made into leather, some of them very beautiful and quality. Here is a short list of them.
Deer and Elk skin
The hides from deer and elk goes way back to the Indians, so they have been very popular. They can be very soft and smooth. However deer skin is not as strong as cowhide, comparable to sheep skin. Elk hide is much stronger, but very hard to find anymore.

Crocodile and Alligator
Everyone has heard about crocodile boots and purses. They are very tough, very beautiful and can last a lifetime. The leather is hard to work with, making it more expensive. A great choice when you have money to burn and want to look classy!
Stingray leather
Yes, the hide of stingrays is actually a very popular and beautiful type of leather for people who can afford it. It is one of the most durable leathers you can find, used by the Japanese at one time as body armor. The texture is like many round pebbles, smooth and slick. It is also the most expensive, far out of reach of most.
Snakeskin leather
Hide from snakes can look very beautiful. It is thin and flexible, but not very strong. It is mainly used for decorations like hat bands, purses or trim for vest and other wear.
Shark skin leather
Another hide that is growing more popular, sharkskin is very durable and tough. It has a very beautiful and sleek look to it and feels smooth to the touch. Yes, it’s expensive!
That gives you a good idea of the different types of leather that goes into all those products you find out there. For the most part, any leather jacket, vest, saddle bags and stuff like that should be made from cowhide, buffalo hide or pig skin. For fashion jackets and trench coats, some vest, pants, gloves and purses, sheepskin is a good choice as well as the first ones.
The rest, well I don’t think you need to worry about, unless you really want to spend $5,000 on a pair of boots or a $3,000 briefcase! So now that you know what type of animal hide you should use, we will next find out how that hide is cut, split and processed, so stay tuned.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Interstellar Trade
Post by SWM   » Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:06 pm

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Exports do not have to be unique to a planet. It could merely be cheaper, for various reasons.

A poor planet may have lower labor costs than a more cosmopolitan world. An advanced planet may have the infrastructure and advanced factories to produce high-tech goods cheaper. One planet may be able to produce certain raw goods with lower cost because of better terrain, climate, or location of needed resources. A planet that specializes in a set of products may produce them cheaper because of scaling efficiencies.

In principle, a planet could produce everything they need. But sometimes it is more cost efficient to let someone else do it. Sometimes it just isn't worth building an entire infrastructure for a product you can easily get somewhere else. Politics and diplomacy can also lead to trade to achieve domestic or foreign policies.

Of course, this only works if shipping costs are very small compared to production costs. David assures us that interstellar shipping is unbelievably cheap.
Last edited by SWM on Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Interstellar Trade
Post by Festival   » Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:06 pm

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Lots of good, careful reasoning in this thread, as is so often the case in this forum!

The Honorverse is, in most ways, a best-case scenario for interstellar trade. FTL ships AND wormhole travel? Enormous populations in countless systems? Multiple robust economies? Extremely efficient starship drives permitting large cargo capacites? Yep...basically best case, and MWW's usual meticulous worldbuilding reflects these baseline parameters. I think the largely Earth-like economics make good sense here.

For a completely different (and no less meticulous) look at the sort of economy that would arise in a mature starfaring culture without FTL, I highly recommend Charles Stross' utterly brilliant "Neptune's Brood." It's set in the same universe as his "Saturn's Children," but thousands of years after, when the post-human culture has spread out and advanced, both technologically and economically.

This universe has basically none of the "magic bullets" sci-fi writers use to overcome the realities of vast interstellar distances. No FTL drives, obviously; in this universe, it seems that it's simply not possible, just as may very well be the case in the RW). No super-efficient drives permitting high acceleration rates that allow cruising speeds at a reasonable fraction of light: starships are limited to miligee acceleration, lest they rapidly exhaust reaction mass. No super-effective particle shielding that would permit those speeds, anyway. Basically, with the exception of centuries-long colony foundation expeditions, there is almost no physical interstellar travel...it's just not practical.

People do travel between stars, at light speed: because they're not actual biological organisms (which they refer to as "Fragiles," and strive valiantly to preserve from extinction), but are instead comprised of nanotech "mechanocites" and picotech "techne'", they can travel by way of transmission lasers, reassembled into new and sometimes rather extensively modified, bodies at the destination point. But even this is rather expensive.

The very, very different economy that arises over thousands of years is very well realized, indeed (it's kind of the point of the book, and the main protagonist is a combination academic/accountant). "Fast money" (local system scrip) and "slow money" (transmitted bitcoin, verified via hash at both ends of the transaction), etc...

Highly recommended for a very, very different sort of exercise in world building (and Charlie's a hell of a writer, regardless).
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Re: Interstellar Trade
Post by kzt   » Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:36 pm

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Festival wrote:Highly recommended for a very, very different sort of exercise in world building (and Charlie's a hell of a writer, regardless).

Except when his politics overwhelms the story, as with the most recent Laundry book.
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Re: Interstellar Trade
Post by Festival   » Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:39 pm

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kzt wrote:
Festival wrote:Highly recommended for a very, very different sort of exercise in world building (and Charlie's a hell of a writer, regardless).

Except when his politics overwhelms the story, as with the most recent Laundry book.


Fair enough...I have basically the same take on John Ringo. ;)
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