What I see as Charis's biggest problem

lyonheart wrote:
Hi Easter-mystic,

You might consider reading some past threads as these ideas have already been threshed about and its unlikely many wish to revisit dead horses.

Actually, I have read the other threads and no what I have said has not been mentioned. no one that I have seen has ever considered the process of introducing a technology like stem power. The assumption has always been that one day Charis will introduce a modern steam engine with no preparatory technology needed.

That idea makes as much sense as Charis introducing a modern assault rifle without first introducing all the different technolgies such as rifling, cartridges, breach loading etc. separately. Charis still has introduced all the components needed to produce a modern weapon. Why should Steam power be any different. There are many uses for steam other than steam engines. There's steam heating, cleaning, cooking. Getting those accepted first will get steam accepted after which an early steam engine like a Newcomen engine can be introduced.

The process by which a technology is introduced going to be more important than thw technology itself on whether it's is accepted or not. Which is why I suggested having someone other than Charis introduce it.

lyonheart wrote:
First, mass production means different things to different people perhaps, but Charis steel is at least in the puddling production stage, which is a relatively much higher volume production than you may be supposing. Bessemer production really didn't take off until the mid 1870's, about 20 years after he patented the concept.

This is one reason why I said that Charis will be in a far better position to utilize steam power than anyone else. Charis probably has more industrial capacity than the rest of Safehold combined

lyonheart wrote:
Secondly, the implication has been from the very beginning in OAR, that steam power was proscribed, nor will the potential for the Go4 to somehow adopt it mean that Charis could immediately grab it, certainly not until father Peter and many others reconsider many things, which easily take a couple of years.

The implication has always been that a modern steam engine will one day be introduced by Charis. At no point did I suggest doing an end run around Father Peter or anyone else. I stated that having someone else introduce it would make others less likely to reject it.

lyonheart wrote:
Thirdly, given the antipathy the Go4 has for Siddarmark, having someone there 'invent' the steam engine would not make the Go4 love or tolerate Siddarmark any more. Rather I suspect such an invention might poison the Go4's attitude towards Siddarmark even further. A Harchong toymaker, who's a cousin of the emperor, might get more of a sympathetic result from a demonstration.

As I recall I called it a Xanatos Gambit. If the Go4 reject it because it comes from Siddarmark, it creates a wedge between Siddarmark and the Go4. Advantage, Charis.

If the GO4 accept it brecause it means that it increases the rate at which raw ores can be produced to feed the mainland war effort. Charis will be able to quickly copy and improve the technology to get an even larger benefit. Advantage, Charis.

That's basically what a Zanatos Gambit is. No matter what the opponent chooses, you benefit.

lyonheart wrote:
As I recall, the Newcomen engine used cast iron, copper and lead, not steel, nor did the Savery engine use steel either.

Both of which was basically useful to drive mine pumps and nothing else really.

lyonheart wrote:
At the end of the second book BHD, in the fall of 892 YoG, the delay in leaving Tellesburg of ten days added several thousand rifles to the expedition(6-8K, depending on your your definition of several) for a daily production of 600-800 (700 as an daily average?), which implies annual production between 168,000 to 210,000 rifles (the lower figure if no work is done on Wednesdays) which is 3-4 times the size of the expeditionary force. A year later re-equipping the Chisholm army should have been much further advanced, or its much bigger than most people think.
Such a production rate which was only expected to go up implies an assembly line of some sort, which various other industries; clothing, print, china, etc; have all used in some degree in manufacturing clothes, books and pamphlets etc, not to mention ships, so Merlin evidently didn't feel the need to belabor the advantages of such when they could see for themselves.

Whether it revolver rifles with percussion caps, or complete cartridges and magazine weapons, it will be interesting.

Best wishes,

L

The rest of Safehold is still struggling to implement cast iron guns and still hasn't clued into corned powder. that's why I stated that whoever actually introduces steam power, charis will be far better placed to improve it and utilize it.

Reposting a quote from over a year ago in regards to steam power on Safehold.

BSRA Oct 892 chapter 1

The problem, as Seamount had just pointed out, was that cast iron was brittle. Safeholdian foundry techniques were remarkably advanced for a culture where steam power had been prohibited, yet they still weren’t up to mass production of steel by a considerable distance. The technology itself lay within their grasp, but there were still obstacles to be overcome.

How ever it is worded must be pretty strong.

T2M

You really don't need a lot of steel to produce a steam engine. Cylinder blocks can be cast iron with sleeves of steel. Copper makes a good boiler, with stays, up to a respectable amount of pressure. The lack of large quantities of steel can be overcome.
However, if the proscriptions prohibit steam power specifically (and from the above it appears that they do), that is the real show stopper.

ka8wtk wrote:You really don't need a lot of steel to produce a steam engine. Cylinder blocks can be cast iron with sleeves of steel. Copper makes a good boiler, with stays, up to a respectable amount of pressure. The lack of large quantities of steel can be overcome.
However, if the proscriptions prohibit steam power specifically (and from the above it appears that they do), that is the real show stopper.

I had posted it a year ago in the following topic:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=79&start=20

But as to your comment about lined cylinders that is actually kind of difficult from my understanding of what is involved in creating modern aluminum block motorcycle engines. Course Merlin has also talked about ways to mass produce artillery with lined brass barrels or wire wrapped barrels it would be doable for Charis. That is if it wasn't proscribed.

T2M

You don't need a large boiler to get alot of use out of it. A donkey steam engine is not much bigger than a couple of household refigerator and were capable of prouducing up to 200 hp. Also the first steam engins were made of iorn not steel and cast iorn boilers Lp were being manufactured well into the 20th century.

I will admit hydro-electric power is too much for the current tech base, and would be hit by a rakurai blast on completion. Is there a way other then steam and other "forbidden" to generate enough power for a ironclad vessel for instance? Other then having shifts of crew on stationary bikes or treadmills to power paddlewheels I cannot think of another way to provide the power sans wind which may not be enough once the ships get heavy enough. Initially it is possible to armor a sail powered ship, but that is a short window.

Perhaps Merlin could nudge towards pulley and gear systems to increase the amount of power generated to improve production. This is just another step as eventually the proscriptions are approached. Will this happen before or after the Go4 is dealt with? It will take several years to get a land force to deal with the numbers of Haven/Howard armies and to create the supply train. Even with Siddarmark coming onboard this could be a while.

tasos74 wrote:I will admit hydro-electric power is too much for the current tech base, and would be hit by a rakurai blast on completion. Is there a way other then steam and other "forbidden" to generate enough power for a ironclad vessel for instance? Other then having shifts of crew on stationary bikes or treadmills to power paddlewheels I cannot think of another way to provide the power sans wind which may not be enough once the ships get heavy enough. Initially it is possible to armor a sail powered ship, but that is a short window.

Perhaps Merlin could nudge towards pulley and gear systems to increase the amount of power generated to improve production. This is just another step as eventually the proscriptions are approached. Will this happen before or after the Go4 is dealt with? It will take several years to get a land force to deal with the numbers of Haven/Howard armies and to create the supply train. Even with Siddarmark coming onboard this could be a while.

I doubt small scale electricity would set off the orbital weapons, otherwise Merlin's flyer would.

Sheriff Yoda wrote:I doubt small scale electricity would set off the orbital weapons, otherwise Merlin's flyer would.

Yes but there are a couple of mitigating factors for that logic.

1) Her flyer is using stealth tech.

2) The method of finding out what would actually set it off is fairly catastrophic for those who find out. Which would also tend to remove the best and the brightest from the gene pool. Unless someone is being very cold blooded (out of character.)

I don't want to be there when they try find out what that level is at.

Also given the level of production that Charis seems capable of electricity and such is more in the nature of the Germans developing the V-1 and V-2 rockets. A drain on a productive system that does not really get you much.

If steam were possible it would be different because of the impacts on shipping times and ship types. Unfortunately it is.

T2M

Yep I know I am arguing both sides of the question but I am good at it and nobody else is in my head to talk to. Well other than him but he is getting boring.:-)

tasos74 wrote:I will admit hydro-electric power is too much for the current tech base, and would be hit by a rakurai blast on completion. Is there a way other then steam and other "forbidden" to generate enough power for a ironclad vessel for instance? Other then having shifts of crew on stationary bikes or treadmills to power paddlewheels I cannot think of another way to provide the power sans wind which may not be enough once the ships get heavy enough. Initially it is possible to armor a sail powered ship, but that is a short window.

Perhaps Merlin could nudge towards pulley and gear systems to increase the amount of power generated to improve production. This is just another step as eventually the proscriptions are approached. Will this happen before or after the Go4 is dealt with? It will take several years to get a land force to deal with the numbers of Haven/Howard armies and to create the supply train. Even with Siddarmark coming onboard this could be a while.

The problem is, muscle power just doesn't scale well. Sure, you can do anything if you put enough people on it. However, on boat you are limited as to how many people you can put on it, and the you just cannot move a ship effectively with the muscle power.

Let's look as an example: Most US Civil War era Ironclads were extremely crampt, the USS Monitor could only hold 59 men. Of the 59 men, 12 men, including those in the engineering department filled support roles during a battle (extra manpower to make repairs, replace casualties, run powder and ammo, etc.). If you were to strip out the engine and use the space to house more people, you could probably fit another 6 men in. So, you would have 18 men available to move a ship that weighed 770 tons. Let's round that down to 700 tons, since we took out the 12 ton steam engine. 1 hp is defined as 10 times larger than 1 Manpower, so, you are trying to move your 700 ton ship with a 1.8hp 'engine'. Use pulleys and gear shifts all you want, the amount of energy available to push the ship is still only 1.8hp (or 1342.26 watts).

The speed at which such an engine can move that much weight depends on the amount of friction the sea will exert on the hull of the ship. I honestly have no idea how much friction that is, but I'm guessing that the speed would work out to a few hundred feet an hour. That's assuming that you are able to turn 100% of the energy the men are exerting onto forward motion and that there is no wind or current you have to work against as well. Obviously, it is not possible to effectively move an ironclad warship by muscle power.

Let's take a look at using muscle power in industry. A lathe capable of boring out a cannon would have to have at least 10hp, or 100 men. The manpower need is just too high compared to the benefit of running extra lathes... especially considering how strapped for warm bodies Charis is already.

You also need to take into account that muscle power has been around a lot longer on Safehold than waterwheels, and it is already integrated into the industry to its maximum efficiency.


Muscle power is not the grand new energy solution of the future on Safehold.

Rook wrote:

tasos74 wrote:I will admit hydro-electric power is too much for the current tech base, and would be hit by a rakurai blast on completion. Is there a way other then steam and other "forbidden" to generate enough power for a ironclad vessel for instance? Other then having shifts of crew on stationary bikes or treadmills to power paddlewheels I cannot think of another way to provide the power sans wind which may not be enough once the ships get heavy enough. Initially it is possible to armor a sail powered ship, but that is a short window.

Perhaps Merlin could nudge towards pulley and gear systems to increase the amount of power generated to improve production. This is just another step as eventually the proscriptions are approached. Will this happen before or after the Go4 is dealt with? It will take several years to get a land force to deal with the numbers of Haven/Howard armies and to create the supply train. Even with Siddarmark coming onboard this could be a while.

The problem is, muscle power just doesn't scale well. Sure, you can do anything if you put enough people on it. However, on boat you are limited as to how many people you can put on it, and the you just cannot move a ship effectively with the muscle power.

Let's look as an example: Most US Civil War era Ironclads were extremely crampt, the USS Monitor could only hold 59 men. Of the 59 men, 12 men, including those in the engineering department filled support roles during a battle (extra manpower to make repairs, replace casualties, run powder and ammo, etc.). If you were to strip out the engine and use the space to house more people, you could probably fit another 6 men in. So, you would have 18 men available to move a ship that weighed 770 tons. Let's round that down to 700 tons, since we took out the 12 ton steam engine. 1 hp is defined as 10 times larger than 1 Manpower, so, you are trying to move your 700 ton ship with a 1.8hp 'engine'. Use pulleys and gear shifts all you want, the amount of energy available to push the ship is still only 1.8hp (or 1342.26 watts).

The speed at which such an engine can move that much weight depends on the amount of friction the sea will exert on the hull of the ship. I honestly have no idea how much friction that is, but I'm guessing that the speed would work out to a few hundred feet an hour. That's assuming that you are able to turn 100% of the energy the men are exerting onto forward motion and that there is no wind or current you have to work against as well. Obviously, it is not possible to effectively move an ironclad warship by muscle power.

Let's take a look at using muscle power in industry. A lathe capable of boring out a cannon would have to have at least 10hp, or 100 men. The manpower need is just too high compared to the benefit of running extra lathes... especially considering how strapped for warm bodies Charis is already.

You also need to take into account that muscle power has been around a lot longer on Safehold than waterwheels, and it is already integrated into the industry to its maximum efficiency.


Muscle power is not the grand new energy solution of the future on Safehold.

I agree with you on this point, I was not trying to pretend that even with gear shafts multiplying out purely muscle power would be feasible, but that you eventually reach the proscriptions and ideology/religious tenets must change or you reach a stopping point. It may very well be a close-minded abstract thought on my part. At a macro-level of Safehold there is a threshold at which most of the population is not... currently interested in crossing as it directly defies the writ and other central teachings of the only religion on the planet. This is a tough sell at best even for Old Charis and only DW knows what may propel the CE past such a hurtle. I have as an underlying notion that this will be reached before the Go4 is completely dealt with, which may be presumptuous of me. I imagine that even if Siddarmark is brought into the fold and a strike right into Zion is accomplished that this holy war will not end. There isn't a balance to the Go4 after the circle was destroyed and CE is getter larger by the book, still doesn't nullify Thirsk, Haven, or Howard for areas to be.... dealt with even if the temple lands are taken.

So my posit is not with technology completely, but with the underlining notions of the sanctity of the church (CoC or Mother Church) and it's beliefs verus survival/victory. Could be the lynchpin of next book for all I could guess.