HFQ Official Snippet #28

JeffEngel wrote:
I do think that a descent in force on the Temple, or assassination/kidnapping runs that can cause a long-term, radical shift in power there, may be a likely conclusion to this war. I don't see things going so long, hard, and bloody as it would be to march all across Dohlar, the Border States, and the Temple Lands, before either (a) the Group of Four sheds members fatally, restructures, and sues for terms that the Allies cannot refuse, or (b) the Allies lose too much momentum on too much hostile territory needing garrisons.

So even the at-all plausible "total" victory scenarios for this war will leave a lot of regimes in place to re-create a CoGA if they keep to the theology they've had for centuries, or actually leave the CoGA out of Zion still around.

If the Allies go for all you demand, they're too likely to be unable to hang onto it.

But there's a whole lot that can be accomplished with the shadow of triumphant Charis and Siddarmark falling across the mainland, the disgrace of the CoGA, and its bankruptcy. It may secure things more permanently to let those effects do their work on beaten nations.

Let the armed serfs return to Harchong having seen Church death camps and fraternized with "heretic" farmers in Siddarmark. Let them spread their tales across the Border States and Temple Lands as they go. Let them see decent people living decent lives without an Inquisitor to be feared.

Let the serfs and slaves of Desnair know that their cousins in Silkiah - and, I suspect, not long in Dohlar and Delferahk - live free. Let their lords know that too. And let those lords know that free labor is the only labor that's not going to slit their throats one of these nights, and that only free labor is going to let their nation escape being a backwater joke in coming decades.

Let kings and princes enjoy the feeling of the Church owing them money for once. Let them enjoy all the local orders looking to them for employment.

Let the Border States and Temple Lands know that their freedom is on Siddarmark's sufferance - and that, if Siddarmark may need a decade or two to recover, its rulers and voters have long memories and they don't want to remain their enemies that long.

Let every mainland realm look at the trade Silkiah and any other state that makes nice with the "heretics" gets. Adn the safety! And let them see that all those Charisian and Siddarmark "heretics" are just like you - only a bit more free-spoken about the guys still in Zion.

And when they all make their own changes in their own states - not necessarily bloodlessly, mind you - it will be their changes, their reforms or revolutions, for them to prize and secure, instead of something imposed on them by outsiders whose arrogance any patriot may despise.

I'm not really suggesting that the allies hang on to anything, particularly. My basic thought here is the destruction of the central authority in Zion.

That would not destroy the COGA as a whole, but it would force a reorganization that wouldn't be top down. The most difficult thing to deal with here would be governance in the Temple Lands. Apart from the Vicars also being the Knights, we really don't have much info on that. Maybe the thing to do would be to send vicars who have not been criminally active home to be the Knights. But whatever else happens, things in the Temple Lands will probably be unstable for a while, both politically and economically.

The other TL countries have political traditions that could function independently of the church.

Just guessing, I suspect that the following will happen...

The COGA will be present and tolerated in allied lands. They will have their own churches and priests, but only minimal political influence. The EOC has already established that pattern and I would expect the Republic to shortly follow suit, although given the damage the SOS caused in the Republic, I would expect that tolerance to be narrower and more difficult.

In Dohlar and Silkiah, the COGA will be curtailed, but probably have more political influence than in allied lands.

In Desnair and Harchong, very little will change, at least at first. The COGA will have to compensate for the loss of central direction from Zion by becoming national churches. The inquisition will form a devil's bargain with the local rulers by agreeing to serve in a secret police role for the state in exchange for backing in enforcing traditional COGA doctrine. The potential for unpredictability here lies in the possibility of peasant revolutions. Should that happen, it is impossible from our vantage point to know how it comes out.

The border states are for the most part backwaters and one would presume conservative which would leave the COGA with a lot of influence and possibly authority. Exactly what that will look like will depend on the political fate of the Border states after the war.

Don

[quote="lyonheart"]Hi EasternMystic,

We're very close on most of your post, but the CoGA will survive this war, NTM no indication anyone intends to attack Harchong or Desnar anytime in the near future.

I'd add the fact the raven Lords probably made ten times as much as the official 'indemnification' [it's not a bribe!] from the soldiers pay as they marched.

However, I don't think Harchong or Desnar will sign the treaty [though the surviving eastern temple lands leaders might], or if they do, they will argue that the alliance being heretics, their signatures are meaningless according to the Holy Writ and the archangels etc.

But it won't matter much for a while since until they start innovating, including modernizing their societies, they won't be able to seriously compete with the alliance, and the smart ones will quickly realise that fighting until they do is useless, which might create schisms etc within them.

Charis has already made it explicit that serfdom is not permitted in the empire [the rest of the empire had two years or less when they entered to end it], and the RoS also agreed to eliminate it internally as well; so I'm very confident all serfs in the BS, NTM Dohlar, Silkiah and Desnar etc know this, and since they often are the vast majority of the population, it won't take much alliance military action in those places to see 'the world turned upside down'.

The point of using Hsing-wu's passage is that BGV can get to the Temple Bay and the Zion River and the city in 2-3 5days this summer or fall, far faster than any other way, not something to be ignored, nor the fact his troops are already winterized; while large land links are created by the other advancing alliance armies.

Dohlar and Silkiah are also switching sides this spring or summer, when not if.

This war will be over, then question previously discussed here is how long will the peace last?

Please feel free to add your insights.

L

There very well may be a COGA at the end of the war but if all the states currently supporting it have been pooled away from it and now support the Charisian Alliance, it will be a nonentity.

The amount of money the Raven Lords made from Chis is unimportant. From the COGA point of view, not resisting the movement of Charisian troops across their lands allowed Charis to Succesfully intervene in the Invasion of Siddarmark. If the Raven Lords had resisted, They would have lost but it would have taken Charis at least a month or two longer to arrive in Siddarmark. The invasion would have been essentially complete at that point.

I never said anything about attacking either Desnair or Harchong. The entire point is that after everyone has been peeled away from the COGA and The COGA leadership has been dealt with both Desnair and Harchong will be left twisting in the wind. Everyone else will be modernizing their economies. They will have to agree to a political settlement to join the new world econy or become completely irrelevant. Otherwise Delferhk or Sodar would be able to conquer them by themselves in a few years.

I meant that it is important to make the elimination of slavery and serfdom an explicit and nonnegotiable part of any terms that are offered to states that switch sides. It hastens the modernization of their economies. It will also be noticed by the members of the Harchong Mighty Host. They will begin to realize that they are fighting against their self interest. The worst case is that more of them desert. the best case, Some of the deserter actively switch sides with whole units changing sides.

I think you are off on the length of time it takes to travers Hsing-Hu's passage. The first Bishop of Charis required an entire month to clear the passage in OAR and was unable to leave until the end og June. His initial trip was going to be at the end September of the previous year. It is obvious from this that the passage is unusable for at least half of the year. If Charis sends troops this fall, they will arrive in time to be trapped in an arctic environment for at least 5 months. During this time, all any Rakurai forces hidden in the general populace have to do is target the Charisian supplies and they will have destroyed an entire army by the time Hsing-Hu's passage reopens. That's usually considered a bad thing to happen. Using the canal network through Lake Pei allows for winter resupply although at a lower rate than during the summer. Their will still be about a month in the spring and fall when resupply becomes difficult to impossible, but that has to be far more desirable than a minimum of 5 months with no resupply.

I'm not sure what your quibble with Dohlar and Silkiah is. At no point did I imply or state that either would not switch sides. I questioned the amount of damage it would be necessary to inflict on dohlar to make them see reason. as for sor Silkiah, I don't think an invasion is necessary, as they will eventually be willing to join. It could happen before Dohlar has been dealt with or after, But it will happen. It becomes not only a waste of time and effort to invade a state that will soon join you willingly but counterproductive as it can only increase any ill feelings by those injured during said invasion.

I know just about everyone else on this board is most fascinated with military innovations and how they shape history, but I'm much more excited about the effects of new technology on everyday life and how that shapes history. I like to remember that USSR's control over Eastern Europe fell because nobody wanted to buy shoes made in Romania, and that the Soviets managed to make a country full of Germans into inefficient workers.

They implemented the assembly line and steam powered machinery to help in the war effort, but when they turn those assembly lines into making clocks and cars and clothes, the Charisan Empire will see a huge rise in its standard of living, and some of that will spread.

I know we will have our battles. But it would be nice if the war was won not solely by military means.

NinaKatarina wrote:I know just about everyone else on this board is most fascinated with military innovations and how they shape history, but I'm much more excited about the effects of new technology on everyday life and how that shapes history. I like to remember that USSR's control over Eastern Europe fell because nobody wanted to buy shoes made in Romania, and that the Soviets managed to make a country full of Germans into inefficient workers.

They implemented the assembly line and steam powered machinery to help in the war effort, but when they turn those assembly lines into making clocks and cars and clothes, the Charisan Empire will see a huge rise in its standard of living, and some of that will spread.

I know we will have our battles. But it would be nice if the war was won not solely by military means.

Well, a war - if you define it just as the period of actual fighting - generally is won by military means. But yeah, define it more broadly as an entire conflict, or consider winning the peace, and non-military factors loom larger.

Charis already has clothes going for it, with the new machines for making them and (particularly) getting thistles out of steel silk. I don't know that Safehold yet has enough customers with a standard of living such that clothing options mean much to any but a small sliver of the very wealthiest. That will certainly change as productivity goes up and more employment is available for people with more skills, able to command higher wages.

Randomiser, we obviously have some miscommunication here, because I agree with several of your points.

Randomiser wrote:Hi All. Back after a break.

On the assassination thing, McGuinness

1. I'm not military, but I don't see why shooting an unsuspecting sergeant from hiding is a perfectly acceptable ambush but shooting an unsuspecting general from hiding is a dastardly assassination

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If you're at war and a man is wearing an enemy uniform and hasn't surrendered, shooting him is perfectly acceptable according to the Geneva Convention. I have no argument with that, and in fact pointed out the battle of Haryl's crossing, where the Charisian snipers shot all the Corisandian leadership they could find as soon a they were within range, which was crucial to winning the battle. They'd also have been happy to shoot Wyrshym the first time he encountered ICA troops in the Sylmahn Gap if they'd known where he was.

Randomiser wrote:2. Clyntahn is inspiring, directing, enforcing and fuelling the Jihad, so he is a perfectly respectable military target whether or not he happens to wear a uniform.

I can' and I won't argue with your logic there. Otherwise I would have argue with Merlin's desire to shoot Clyntahn if he ever gets close enough to do the job, which I suspect is more an emotional response than a logical one. (After all, Clyntahn is doing more to undermine the Proscriptions and actually help the allies than any Grand Fornicator in history...)

Randomiser wrote:3. I rather suspect the Inquisition do post a schedule for executions in Zion. How else do they get the crowds to attend?

Yeah, I think you got me there. Obviously the executions - I mean the opportunities for the "Heretics" to confess their sins and by the destruction of their mortal bodies save their souls" are obviously posted somewhere in advance. Unfortunately, all that Merlin had in place when Gwylym and his surviving crewmates were murdered was a SNARC remote running on purely passive sensors, so he was quite lucky to get the picture of Gwylym spitting in Clyntahn's face, and that imagery was passed along to OWL hours later after the SNARC remote had retreated to whatever Merlin considers a safe distance from the Temple for a SNARC remote to beam its info to a SNARC in orbit, then back to OWL.

If Charis is serious about killing Clyntahn they ought to send a dozen scout snipers to attend the Inquisition's next dog and pony show. Once again we come up against Charis' policy of "We don't assassinate people, Clyntahn does!" Some people make the world a better place by their absence, and Clyntahn would be one of them. So would the entire Go4 and every member of the Inquisition in Zion. (Does Phandys count? Cause I have high hopes for him!) You may have noted that Charis has already passed a death sentence on every inquisitor?

Of course the snipers should also shoot Trynair and Magwair if they're present, (Duchairn doesn't attend these things) plus every member of the Inquisition in view, and mercy kill their poor victims before they're burned to death or put to the Punishment, since rescuing their broken bodies is out of the question. Unfortunately the snipers may not have time to shoot everyone on the podium who deserves it, since the snipers need to escape after all!

Randomiser wrote:4. I recognise all the issues raised about whether killing Clyntahn is often feasible or would be helpful for Merlin's longer term Aim, but I'm with Don as regards trying to minimise the cost in war dead.

I hate Clyntahn as much as anyone, yet I understand how his rubber stamping any and all allied inventions (and those of his own people) that will help the war effort undermine the Proscriptions and spur innovation. Other Grand Fornicators might think twice about it, Clyntahn obviously doesn't.

As destructive as the war has been and will continue to be, you can't discount the incredible amount of innovation it has spurred, especially in Charis. This doesn't mean I'm wild about the body count, especially among the concentration camps, which I expect HM to encounter soon. There are three good things about finding a concentration camp: first, the victims will be fed, second, they'll be freed, and finally, all of the guards and officers overseeing the camp who don't escape (unlikely with HM's cavalry units) will be lined up against the wall and shot. Immediately!

As horrible as all this is, the war cannot end until the leadership of the CoGA, whoever they happen to be at the time, are willing to sit down at the negotiating table, and meet several of the following terms:

1) The reformist churches have every right to exist and will not be persecuted, much like the TLs in Tellesberg are tolerated and allowed their own churches and priests.

2) The power of the Inquisition to torture kill in the name of God must be renounced by the CoGA and all schisms (Not a problem for the CoC or the CoS.) The CoGA will whine about the Book of Schueler and their responsibilities to the souls of every man, but in the end they'll renounce the Question and the Punishment, or the allies will deal with the even newer leaders of the CoGA.

3) The civil power of the CoGA must be broken. No more appointing Kings, Dukes, Earls, etc. No decreeing laws. You're supposed to be priests, act like it!

4) All Archbishops, bishops, etc. will be appointed locally by local clergy.

5) No religion is to be allowed to muster or deploy troops. War is an act of governments, not religion.

6) Tithes are to be reduced to no more than 10%, which is what the word "tithe" actually means, to prevent the CoGA and any schism from becoming "adventurous" or overly corrupt. The CoGA is to give up any claims of ownership of its estates, lands, and holdings in the EoC, Siddarmark, and in any other country whose troop's expenses it paid or for whom it provided weapons during the Jihad, which includes the Temple Lands.

Throw the last bit in as a negotiating ploy, but by all means, break up the huge estates in the Temple Lands that have kept the vicarage fat, happy, and feeling that corruption is their due for centuries! Hand part of those estates over to the serf/slaves who were tied to the land they worked. The vicars are free to hire their former slaves or those of anyone else for a fair wage. (I bet they'll likely be astonished by how much production goes up on the former serf's land!)

7) The CoGA must order all TLs to live peacefully with their reformist neighbors and to not initiate violence against them, as will the schisms. (Good luck with that in Siddarmark, where the Reformists are going to want some serious payback!)

8) Serfdom and slavery by any name chain the human spirit. God created all the Adams and all the Eves in the same instant, therefore all men are God's children, so binding some of them with the chains of slavery is unjust. (Good luck getting that past Harchong or Desnair, but a good poker player has a card or two he can throw away - for now.)

Feel free to jump in and add any additional terms of surrender you'd like - I know I didn't think of them all!

Randomiser wrote:5. I think, 'We won't shoot at their their rulers so they won't shoot at us,' is the most unutterably hypocritical cowardice and the furthest thing from the minds of Cayleb and Sharleyan imaginable. It is equivalent to saying 'We don't mind putting our vassals and subjects, whom we are sworn to protect, in harm's way, but by no means are we prepared to put ourselves in any danger.' Does that sound like either of our monarchs to you?

Of course it doesn't, and you know it, because they wear their ballistic undies! (Remember Sharley getting shot?) Who was in the first wave to rescue King Haarahld in OAR? Cayleb - that's when he got to use Excalibur in battle for the first time. However, there's a major reason that rulers are surrounded by bodyguards. The death of bodyguard is a tragedy, but the death of a just ruler is a disaster!

There's a short list of high church officials and enemy rulers who the EoC would shoot on sight - the Go4 and King Ronald of Dohlar, and all of them have murdered thousands of Charisians or helped to cause the death of thousands of Siddarmarkan and EoC citizens to make that list. Did Cayleb have Nahrmahn, Irys, Daivyn, Sharley, or Tarot (whatever his name is) executed? Nope, Cayleb either married them or married their kids off to his relatives, as well as making them high ranking nobles in the EoC. How is that working out? Rather well wouldn't you think? How would things be going if Cayleb had shortened Nahrmahn by a head? (The little guy has been rather useful after all.)

How about killing off Irys and Daivyn to end Hektor's bloodline? That would have settled things down nicely in Corisande. Instead Clyntahn tried to kill Irys and Hektor in front of the cathedral on their wedding day, and now Corisandian youths by the thousands are signing up for the ICA!

Ok, so Sharley did actually execute Zebediah, but they had him dead to rights for treason and you just can't let people like that live - and the island of Zebediah is rather pleasantly shocked to be getting honest governance for the first time!

If you can cite me a single instance where anyone who serves the EoC had a shot at a foreign ruler and didn't take it, I'll argue this point with you. Since I can't think of a single one, you've basically set up a straw man argument which has never occurred. When the Haarahld VIIs arrive in Gorath Bay and Merlin sets out after King Ronald to catch and execute him, I'll accept your apology. (Although given my track record, that isn't likely to happen...)

Randomiser wrote:6. I recognize there are all sorts of storyline reasons why Clyntahn probably survives until the last minute, and maybe even beyond, as a fugitive, say. But I was responding to the 'Merlin would love to shoot Clyntahn but can't,' suggestion up thread.

SPOILER - NOT KIDDING
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If you insist that Merlin shoot Clyntahn, now that Merlin has access to Aivah's intelligence sources in Zion - by which I mean he could ask her nicely if perhaps her people could inform him when the next round of executions are scheduled. A simple colored scarf placed in a window with a passive SNARC watching would be info enough for him to arrive for the festivities. A single shot would ring out, and it would most likely do lovely things that I won't go into great detail here to Clyntahn's head. However, the presence of a PICA that close to the Temple might wake up something in the basement... so if you're going to shoot Clyntahn, have a unit of scout snipers do it, since they'll have time to shoot all the vicars, inquisitors, and mercy kill the mangled victims as well. (Or not, it depends on how badly the victims have been tortured.)

However, once the Temple Basement has been secured, it would be a shame not to have a Clyntahn death scene like when Mab executed the priest in LaMA. Besides, Clyntahn really does need to look into the eyes of the being who predates the Day of Creation and who will someday relegate the CoGA to the steaming dung heap of history as the perversion that it is - and be told that Clyntahn isn't God but he will make a nice wall hanging as the maniacal megalomaniac he is, and that the lunatics Langhorne and Chihiro are waiting for him as fellow mass murderers in Hell!

I don't suppose Merlin could impale the Grand Fornicator upside down using a new orifice? Nah, not classy enough for a terrifying execution that's so richly deserved... Since it's his most obvious feature, impale him on the wall through his stomach. I understand that it often takes a long time to die that way...

Peter2 wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:
... (I was told that a lot of them are soldiers retired from said Red Army . . . )

Their issue is not wanting to live as serfs. Their issue is that Russia sent them to settle long long ago--which they did--and then abandoned them. They are living where the native populace sees them rather negatively.

McGuiness thanks for your comments. I was away from the forum for a couple of days and surprised to find my previous short ppost had got lots of response. I did a kind of one-off response to all of it. So apologies for point 5 above, it wasn't directed at you. Someone else up thread did suggest the 'let's not set a precedent for shooting at rulers' argument. Despite the assignations etc we have already seen.

The throwaway at the end of point 6 only occurred to me as I wrote. It might well be an interesting plot twist to let Clyntahn escape to somewhere, deepest Harchong, say, to denounce the traitors and heretic-lovers who have been dealing with the EoC and lead the 'genuine Vicarate of God's Church' in exile in preparation for the next war. Very frustrating for all those longing to see him get what's comoing to him, of course. A nice man like RFC would never do something like that to his loyal readers though, would he?

lyonheart wrote:Hi Randomiser,

Amen.

A truly excellent post!

Thank you for putting my own thoughts into far fewer words than I would have.

Its one of your several talents I know, but all should be appropriately recognised.

L

Randomiser wrote:Hi All. Back after a break.

On the assassination thing, McGuinness

1. I'm not military, but I don't see why shooting an unsuspecting sergeant from hiding is a perfectly acceptable ambush but shooting an unsuspecting general from hiding is a dastardly assassination.

2. Clyntahn is inspiring, directing, enforcing and fuelling the Jihad, so he is a perfectly respectable military target whether or not he happens to wear a uniform.

3. I rather suspect the Inquisition do post a schedule for executions in Zion. How else do they get the crowds to attend?

4. I recognise all the issues raised about whether killing Clyntahn is often feasible or would be helpful for Merlin's longer term Aim, but I'm with Don as regards trying to minimise the cost in war dead.

5. I think, 'We won't shoot at their their rulers so they won't shoot at us,' is the most unutterably hypocritical cowardice and the furthest thing from the minds of Cayleb and Sharleyan imaginable. It is equivalent to saying 'We don't mind putting our vassals and subjects, whom we are sworn to protect, in harm's way, but by no means are we prepared to put ourselves in any danger.' Does that sound like either of our monarchs to you?

6. I recognise there are all sorts of storyline reasons why Clyntahn probably survives until the last minute, and maybe even beyond, as a fugitive, say. But I was responding to the 'Merlin would love to shoot Clyntahn but can't,' suggestion upthread.

1. Couldn't agree more - if a sergeant is a viable sniper target, then the general should be too... philosophically. There may be some good reasons why you DON'T want to shoot the general though (more on that later).

2. Yep. Clyntahn is most definitely the leader of the Inquisition and all the Church forces. In name, in actual practice, in every way (more on that later too!)

3. Probably, but I don't recall any written evidence of this.

4. Killing Clyntahn is almost certainly feasible... Somehow. Dozens of potential schemes are running through my head.

5. "We won't shoot at their leaders so they won't shoot at ours?"... Come on... Really?? I have no doubt whatsoever that if the Temple could get someone in the presence of Caleb or Sharleyan that they would pull the trigger or detonate the bomb in a heartbeat (witness Sharleyan in Corisande and Hector's wedding)... More on THAT later, too.

6. Clyntahn surviving until the last minute? IMHO more than likely...

Now to answer all of my previous "more on that later's... Me? I think the Temple and the Inquisition have some fairly competent people in the field. Not as competent as the ICA, but nonetheless pretty decent commanders. They are learning from their mistakes at least. But it seems to me that in many cases their hands are constrained by their Intendants who report directly to Clyntahn. They're probably members of the Inquisition as well. So they're operating under huge pressure - let's go so far as to call it duress - from the Temple / Clyntahn. Clyntahn behaves a bit like a megalomaniac. His temper is legion. His incompetence (from our perspective looking in) is incredible. His micromanagement of the front lines is epic. And now let's add in the external factor of delayed communications - he has (at best) the semaphore network or wyverns as compared to the SNARC network and the Seijins. The ICA is very definitely inside his decision loop, which means anything he does will always be too little, too late. So if Clyntahn wants to micromanage a war from a distance against an enemy who is infinitely more agile than he is (in all ways), then I say "more power to him!" Clyntahn reminds me a lot of Hitler... Why would you want to kill off the leader of the opposition when he's your greatest military ally - when he doesn't even know it! It's truly unfortunate that so many of the Temple soldiers will die, but the ultimate objective is NOT military - it's cultural and philosophical. Charis has to PROVE - over and over again - that the Temple is wrong. Best way to do that (IMHO) is to discredit them militarily, socially, morally, religiously, etc, etc, etc. So keep Clyntahn alive as he's the "heart and soul" of the Temple and the Inquisition. Over and over again, make him and the rest of the Temple lackeys look like utter incompetent buffoons to prove that there's no way God and the Archangels could possibly be on their side.

Randomiser wrote:McGuiness thanks for your comments. I was away from the forum for a couple of days and surprised to find my previous short ppost had got lots of response. I did a kind of one-off response to all of it. So apologies for point 5 above, it wasn't directed at you. Someone else up thread did suggest the 'let's not set a precedent for shooting at rulers' argument. Despite the assignations etc we have already seen.

The throwaway at the end of point 6 only occurred to me as I wrote. It might well be an interesting plot twist to let Clyntahn escape to somewhere, deepest Harchong, say, to denounce the traitors and heretic-lovers who have been dealing with the EoC and lead the 'genuine Vicarate of God's Church' in exile in preparation for the next war. Very frustrating for all those longing to see him get what's comoing to him, of course. A nice man like RFC would never do something like that to his loyal readers though, would he?

I can see Clyntahn escaping... and then getting lynched by the first group of "Temple Loyalists" that gave him shelter.

Although I'm not sure Weber has ever used such a plot twist before: the villain's gettaway being cut off not by his avowed enemies, but by some little guy victims who he had previously disregarded as completely unimportant non-entities.

"Me? I think the temple and the inquisition have some fairly competent people in the field..."

Yeah, they manage everything but win. With the exception of Taisyn on the Daivyn who was just a tad bit outnumbered, the Temple has lost every battle where they couldn't match rifles against pikes...

Don