HFQ Official Snippet #28

There is nothing on Safehold outside of Nimue's cave that is even capable of putting a scruff mark on the Temple. Nobody in the Temple would even notice the attempt. That would include its windows!

Don

n7axw wrote:There is nothing on Safehold outside of Nimue's cave that is even capable of putting a scruff mark on the Temple. Nobody in the Temple would even notice the attempt. That would include its windows!

Don

Oh, I dunno. A mild "thunk!" and a lead smear on the window may indicate someone is trying to shoot you. Settle down and watch - it may be neat to see if they keep trying.

JeffEngel wrote:Oh, I dunno. A mild "thunk!" and a lead smear on the window may indicate someone is trying to shoot you. Settle down and watch - it may be neat to see if they keep trying.

If this war is about to go as we all expect it to, then this may soon become a popular pastime, whether the vicars want it or not.

I have another idea for assassinating Clyntahn. Do we know whether the Plaza of Martyrs has a roof or not? If it doesn't, would Clyntahn still go out of it to watch executions of "heretics"? (then again, I wonder whether there are any "heretics" left to catch for him in Zion) If so, Merlin could fly high over the Temple in his skimmer and take Clyntahn down from above.

Imagine what would people think if Clyntahn was suddenly shot with a bullet straight from the sky...

Kakai wrote:
I have another idea for assassinating Clyntahn. Do we know whether the Plaza of Martyrs has a roof or not? If it doesn't, would Clyntahn still go out of it to watch executions of "heretics"? (then again, I wonder whether there are any "heretics" left to catch for him in Zion) If so, Merlin could fly high over the Temple in his skimmer and take Clyntahn down from above.

From the descriptions I'm pretty sure it doesn't. It's outside the Temple and forms the impressive approach to it. I have long been of the opinion that Merlin could very probably have taken Clyntahn during the execution of Gwyllam Manthyr by sniping with a then available Charisian rifle if he had really wanted to do so.

I've never really understood why he is quite prepared to shoot troopers who get in his way, but thinks going after high-ups would be morally dubious and corrosive assassination.

Kakai wrote:

Kytheros wrote:Clyntahn is known to have a habit of mounting his mistresses while looking out his corner window over the city of Zion.

The assassination plan is shaping up nicely

I guess Clyntahn's guards would thoroughly search the lady before letting her anywhere near the Grand Inquisitor, especially given the recent assassinations. Of course, Merlin could take him down from the window... if it wasn't for this translucent coating thing that's suppossedly strong enough to protect the Temple from anyting short of multi-megaton warhead.

Solution pending...

I believe those are fancy television screens, not windows, as seen in the very recent drives itself windowless car. He can see out; they cannot see in.

Randomiser wrote:

Kakai wrote:
I have another idea for assassinating Clyntahn. Do we know whether the Plaza of Martyrs has a roof or not? If it doesn't, would Clyntahn still go out of it to watch executions of "heretics"? (then again, I wonder whether there are any "heretics" left to catch for him in Zion) If so, Merlin could fly high over the Temple in his skimmer and take Clyntahn down from above.

From the descriptions I'm pretty sure it doesn't. It's outside the Temple and forms the impressive approach to it. I have long been of the opinion that Merlin could very probably have taken Clyntahn during the execution of Gwyllam Manthyr by sniping with a then available Charisian rifle if he had really wanted to do so.

I've never really understood why he is quite prepared to shoot troopers who get in his way, but thinks going after high-ups would be morally dubious and corrosive assassination.

Some of it may be an archaic sense of honor that lingered even into the Terran Federation. We can glorify war; we can't glorify murder; attacking soldiers who are, in practice, thoroughly defenseless can come under the war category; attacking a leader who is unarmed and in any immediate sense defenseless gets sorted into the murder one. I am not claiming that's all rational - it's just the way people do in fact often, usually, think.

Some of it may be that wars and the particular actions that compose them have a fair record of settling things. If the other nation proves it can render your opposition ineffective and/or too costly, you adjust to a different state of things. If they pop off a leader, they may make a martyr and you can certainly replace him or her. There may be a good argument that Clyntahn is a leader whose death would make the jihad crumble for lack of sufficiently well-placed interest in continuing it, but Merlin may not take that to be convincing. There's certainly a fine argument that Clyntahn deserves to die, and his death would reduce Safehold's net suffering, but then you have to weigh costs and risks and that may not - yet - work out well enough, given Clyntahn's security.

JeffEngel wrote:Some of it may be an archaic sense of honor that lingered even into the Terran Federation. We can glorify war; we can't glorify murder; attacking soldiers who are, in practice, thoroughly defenseless can come under the war category; attacking a leader who is unarmed and in any immediate sense defenseless gets sorted into the murder one. I am not claiming that's all rational - it's just the way people do in fact often, usually, think.

Some of it may be that wars and the particular actions that compose them have a fair record of settling things. If the other nation proves it can render your opposition ineffective and/or too costly, you adjust to a different state of things. If they pop off a leader, they may make a martyr and you can certainly replace him or her. There may be a good argument that Clyntahn is a leader whose death would make the jihad crumble for lack of sufficiently well-placed interest in continuing it, but Merlin may not take that to be convincing. There's certainly a fine argument that Clyntahn deserves to die, and his death would reduce Safehold's net suffering, but then you have to weigh costs and risks and that may not - yet - work out well enough, given Clyntahn's security.

Yeah. Assassinations are viewed as cowardly. It's a statement, "I can't beat you fair and square." And since an assassination doesn't really materially affects an army's ability to fight, it's not a good deterrent against military action.

And as in real life, assassinations in Safehold have a tendency to BACKFIRE on the ones doing it, even when they're successful at the initial assassination. For example, the assasination of Prince Hektor may have caused Charis some initial trouble, but in the long run helped weld Corrisande to the Charisian Empire. And that was hardly the only assassination that worked that way.

In fact, the only assassinations that haven't had unfortunate side effects for the side doing the assassinating seems to be Nynian's offing of various Vicars. But even then that may not be true as it seems Clyntahn is using that to shore up his own political support in the Vicarate.

So I suspect that assassinating Clyntahn would actually be BAD for the good guys in the long run. If nothing else, the Charisians would get blamed for it and tarnish their good guy reputation. Not to mention that as far as bringing the CoGA and cracking the strangle hold it has on independent thinking, Clyntahn is practically the best ally Merlin could ask for; the more extreme Clyntahn gets, the more he discredits the Church in the eyes of every rational person on the planet. Kill Clyntahn and you may well get someone competent in his place.

Randomiser wrote:From the descriptions I'm pretty sure it doesn't. It's outside the Temple and forms the impressive approach to it. I have long been of the opinion that Merlin could very probably have taken Clyntahn during the execution of Gwyllam Manthyr by sniping with a then available Charisian rifle if he had really wanted to do so.

I've never really understood why he is quite prepared to shoot troopers who get in his way, but thinks going after high-ups would be morally dubious and corrosive assassination.

Please re-read the final battle scene in OAR and tell me again that you don't understand why Merlin slaughtered every Corisandian soldier in his way in a desperate attempt to reach King Haarahld before his monarch and friend was killed, and those Merlin killed included Black Water, who commanded the entire campaign against Charis. Then tell me again why you don't understand how killing off the leadership of the opposition in battle would be morally corrosive.

If one of the scout snipers had realized Wyrshym was watching their initial encounter in the Sylmahn Gap from close range, he'd have happily put a round through him, and we'd have cheered! Remember the Battle of Haryl's Crossing in Corisande, where the first shots were all scout snipers shooting the leadership of the Corisandian army? The confusion that caused basically won the battle before the serious shooting started.

Please keep in mind that the sheer number of deaths in this war is weighing heavily on Merlin's conscience. Even if he doesn't deal the killing blow himself, he feels responsible for starting the war - which was inevitable, although his inventions did speed it up by a year or two at most, and enabled Charis to survive. The Go4 started the war over dinner, but unfortunately for them, Charis didn't do them the favor of rolling over and dying!

When Merlin was forced to kill the semaphore crews in MTaT, who weren't soldiers and were just doing their civilian jobs but had to be eliminated so the ironclads could get past them without a message being sent ahead on the semaphore chain, he agonized about having to do it, then basically shut off his brain and let his reflexes take over, because all those people were innocent. That's what's driving Merlin slowly insane, and why he was willing to use the copy of Nimue's personality for the new PICA - she was pure of the horrible deeds he'd been forced to commit. (And I bet he takes the wet jobs and leaves the skullduggery to her.)

As for assassinating the leadership of the CoGA and its armies, (other than Clyntahn) Merlin feels that the EoC should definitely not be in the business of assassinations, since it's one obvious difference between the two sides The CoGA, Clyntahn, his inquisitors and his Rakurai suicide bombers are murderous thugs, and they all kill innocents. Charis avoids that whenever possible - note that they actually take prisoners when their Siddarmarkan allies would happily kill those men instead. (Note that Mab executing soldiers and inquisitors who were guilty of brutal torture and murder was justice, not assassination.)

I'm not holding my breath that the ICA won't execute the entire staffs of the concentration camps it encounters though, and those butchers deserve it!

Moving along...

The plaza of Martyrs is just that - a plaza, meaning a flat, empty place. (Although it does have some rather nice fountains.) Platforms and seating are provided for days when the Inquisition is feeling murderous.

Using an M96, especially when high powered smokeless powder is available, Merlin could pick Clyntahn off from nearly a mile away, which would also give him time to escape. Unfortunately, whatever is under the temple might wake up if it senses the nearby presence of a PICA.

Of course a dozen scout snipers might be able to pull it off as well, since their guns have even more range, and if telescopic lenses for rifles have been introduced, they could even get a great view of the the Grand Fornicator in their crosshairs before they pull the trigger. (And another view of him looking around in confusion wondering where the bullets are coming from should they miss and have to fire again, or they could enjoy the view as he bleeds out and gives new meaning to "the Plaza of Martyrs.")

Keep in mind, there isn't a single innocent vicar or inquisitor in the plaza during the final phase of the Punishment of Schueler, and shooting the victims would give them a merciful instant death. Have you read what they do to "heretics" during the Punishment? Read about the murder of Erayk Dynnys in BSRA! So the snipers should keep on shooting until nobody on the platform is still moving, victims included, since their bodies are already tortured and broken. Death would come as a comfort to them. (Plus there's probably no chance of pulling off a rescue.)

Yes, Merlin could pick off Clyntahn whenever the fat pig sets foot outside the temple, which he almost never does. There was never a chance that Merlin could do it when Gwylym Manthyr and the last survivors of his command were murdered, because Merlin simply didn't have enough time to get there - the temple isn't in the habit of posting schedules regarding the executions of "heretics," or Clyntahn would already be dead.

I look forward to the day when Merlin skewers his Fatness with a sharp pig sticker, which is a scene that will undoubtedly exceed the scene from LaMA when Mab hung the murderous inquisitor to the wall by slamming a Charisian midshipman's dirk through the coward's chest while holding him several inches off the floor and telling him that his "church" was an abomination created by lunatics. The dirk did a lovely job of keeping the corpse above ground level until the bodies of all the murderers were found, by which time they'd joined Langhorne and company in Hell.

As for shooting the temple with 10" guns or anything else available to the ICN, hitting the temple dome might not scratch it, but the energy of the collision between a 500 lb. solid shot and the battle steel dome has to go somewhere. In all likelihood the dome would ring like a bell, and the sheer racket might rupture eardrums and internal organs. So it's not worth discounting the value of a shot like that.

However, if a Haarahld VII get that close to the Temple, it means that undercover ICM have already seized it from the inside, so its only job is to blow away any groups of Temple Guards or Inquisitors who gather and try to take the Temple back. Since it appears that the doors can be closed and barred from the inside, once the ICM take the place, it's all over except waiting for reinforcements while some specialists search the basement, and the troops play "Catch the vicar" until all the luxury apartments are empty. Then they get to decide who to hang and (if possible) who to let go - but since Clyntahn murdered the circle, Cahnyr is the only archbishop left who we actually know is worthy of his vestments.

Oh, there's LOTS of inquisitors in the temple, so the marines are going to have SO much fun!

McGuiness wrote:As for assassinating the leadership of the CoGA and its armies, (other than Clyntahn) Merlin feels that the EoC should definitely not be in the business of assassinations, since it's one obvious difference between the two sides The CoGA, Clyntahn, his inquisitors and his Rakurai suicide bombers are murderous thugs, and they all kill innocents. Charis avoids that whenever possible - note that they actually take prisoners when their Siddarmarkan allies would happily kill those men instead. (Note that Mab executing soldiers and inquisitors who were guilty of brutal torture and murder was justice, not assassination.)

Skipping assassinations as a matter of Imperial policy is the call of the joint monarchs. It's relevant for any monarch that a policy of assassination begs response in kind, at the time and as a precedent for the future, and such reprisals put the monarchs in danger they would not otherwise be in. It's a cynical reason, so it probably applies to Cayleb and Sharleyan less than any other monarchs, but there's no reason to think they are so virtuous they are blind to that themselves. (Neither of them would care for a policy that puts the other in any more danger, ever. Or Alanah, in the future.) And in this case, the Church is already in the business of attempting to assassinate them, so the cynical worries would be only about the precedents set rather than response in kind in this conflict.

I'm not holding my breath that the ICA won't execute the entire staffs of the concentration camps it encounters though, and those butchers deserve it!

Well, yeah. The EoC is trying to keep its own conduct within the traditional customs and usages of war on Safehold, even when its enemies and some of its allies do not. But death camps fall outside those customs and under the "mass murder" legal consideration. Have trials, no reason they'll take long, and execute sentence - a very straightforward one on Safehold, even if wartime expediency may make it even more compelling.

Moving along...

The plaza of Martyrs is just that - a plaza, meaning a flat, empty place. (Although it does have some rather nice fountains.) Platforms and seating are provided for days when the Inquisition is feeling murderous.

Using an M96, especially when high powered smokeless powder is available, Merlin could pick Clyntahn off from nearly a mile away, which would also give him time to escape. Unfortunately, whatever is under the temple might wake up if it senses the nearby presence of a PICA.

Of course a dozen scout snipers might be able to pull it off as well, since their guns have even more range, and if telescopic lenses for rifles have been introduced, they could even get a great view of the the Grand Fornicator in their crosshairs before they pull the trigger. (And another view of him looking around in confusion wondering where the bullets are coming from should they miss and have to fire again, or they could enjoy the view as he bleeds out and gives new meaning to "the Plaza of Martyrs.")

Well, they would still have to get going. Having a great head start doesn't mean you can squander it, even if you miss a well-earned spectacle.

I wonder if Terran Federation contact lenses and a scout-sniper rifle built in the Cave to TF machine tolerances and quality control, in the hands of a (human) scout-sniper in the Inner Circle, may not do even better. Or, for that matter, one could substitute for the Charisian sniper there one of Nynian's operatives, who are probably in a better position to get a good spot and have an exit strategy. (Assuming one of them would be both a good enough shot and all the way in by the time the opportunity comes up.)