Total $Tax Rates$ In The Honorverse? ...

Manticore still has some income stream from the Junction. What can't come though are SL flagged/registered ships, SL and various other warships.

The potential and probablilty of formerly SL flagged ships changing registration so that they can continue to move cargos thought the junction network has been discussed. Think of it as a ship which was registered in Iran is now registered in Panama or Liberia. The ownership is going to be a corprate shell somewhere that ultimaly might belong to Iran or Iranian nationals but the "flagging" of the ship is elsewhere. Remember that the RMN Lacoon II holding forces are NOT destroying or interning SL flagged ships (nor those which are owned by companies based on an SL Member world).

Even with all the disruption to shipping and commerce WITHIN the League from Lacoon I and then Lacoon II, there are still a lot of businesses within the SL that have trade and contracts for stuff outside the league. Selling widgets and heavy machinery and various "stuff" to customers in Silesia and Matapan plus importing goods and materials from those places is still big business if you can keep the trade route open for you goods. Every single cargo as well as ship that entered the Manticore network is going to pay fees for the ship and cargo. That is the engine that maintains the Manticore Government and helps drive their own economy because it has (and will) pay for the manufacturieng and building of the ships and military equipment.

As Star Systems both in the Leauge or under it's effective control ("clients" of the OFS etc) break the control, they will both be able to and want to get into the trade that either had been comming from or too them but controlled earlier by OFS or local Tyrants etc.

What haven't we yet been shown but can imagine is going on?

Any system that had actual or nominal control of a terminus taken under Lacoon II MIGHT be "offered" a deal with Manticore. Manticore administeres the terminus and splits the fees with the system that is the nominal owner. This - given the way Manticore is shown to structure the fee distribution with systems it already does this under treaty arrangements- would be a really good deal for the local system. In the short term, the local government (president for life, basic tyrant, OFS croney "owning" the government) would still be getting a large piece of the income- perhaps even more than OFS was letting them have. That is still pumping money into Manticore and leaves the possibility that should a local popular rebelion happen because OFS and friends are no longer able to stand behind the local tyrant, new government would be dealing with the much more flexable Manticore way of doing business in terms of actually sharing things like termini.

We have not been told what the arrangements are between Manticore and Beowulf to pay for all the stuff being made at Beowulf for the Manticore rebuilding. That includes shipping (althought Manticore has a LOT of otherwise idle freighters that it would be paying to move stuff both ways) and source of raw and refined materials plus licensing of products to Beowulf companies to produce for the rebuilding using Manticore proprietary tech and patents etc.

Its the detai that would have to be there. Very much on the line of Lend-Lease.

Besides, Manticore didn't lose 100% of its manufacturing capacity and workforce, "just" what was involved in the three stations and most of the yards activly building ships when Oyster Bay happened. There is going to still be a lot of capacity -both on planet and space-based, that would have the ability to convert some or all of production to things which are needed parts for exsiting equipment or are things to make other things to bootstrap up the rebuilding infrastructure.

Weird Harold wrote: Some of that Empire is even up to the tech and educational standards of the central planets.

Which part is this?

The part that got a few decades of peep occupation, oppression and "education" after they were flattened by the invasion? The one that they have been trying for about 6 years to rebuild? It's like East Germany in 1994, but without the easy access.

The part that is mostly occupied by 3-legged savages?

The parts that were considered backwaters under threat by OFS and barely could produce an obsolete DD?

The fact that a place is full of nice people and would be a great place to vacation doesn't mean it has any real economic power.

Talbott has a lot more people than Manticore and still has a lot less wealth on either a per capita or overall. Hence Talbott wanted to become part of the SKM and Manticore wasn't overwhelmed by how awesome this would be.

Go here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... per_capita

Manticore is Qatar on that list.
Talbott is Costa Rica.
The average SL core world is like Spain/Italy/UK.

Brigade XO wrote:Besides, Manticore didn't lose 100% of its manufacturing capacity and workforce, "just" what was involved in the three stations and most of the yards activly building ships when Oyster Bay happened. There is going to still be a lot of capacity -both on planet and space-based, that would have the ability to convert some or all of production to things which are needed parts for exsiting equipment or are things to make other things to bootstrap up the rebuilding infrastructure.

No, that is not at all what David has actually said. It's pretty all gone. There is some light surface industry, but very limited.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/282/0

There is a post that he references above, but I can't find. Essentially he said OB is functionally the equivalent to having, on some Tuesday morning at 10 am, every single manufacturing plant in the US blow up. Every Boeing plant, every Boeing supplier, every GE plant, Cisco, HP and Apple, every Intel plant, everyone who supplies equipment for Intel, every auto plant and every supplier, all the shipyards. Everything. You are essentially left with the most advanced production capability being the HS shop classes and junior college machinist training program.

It's not absurdly impossible to rebuild, but they are really not able to bootstrap themselves in any reasonable period. They need someone who has the ability to produce modern fabrication systems and very large orbital platforms. They can then use these to produce the final generation of equipment (and actual orbital stations), or they can provide plans to someone who can try to produce equivalents of the current manticore systems.

Either way, it's a LOT of money.

I personally believe David underestimates how hard this would be. (The Saturn 5 and FOGBANK issues) But he has some good points, and having Gregor and Beowulf on the other side of WH that can move 200 million ton objects allows for some very interesting things. But if you care we went over it here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5763&p=146354&hilit=Lockheed#p146354 (probably elsewhere too)

Yes, Manticore has taken a hit. No doubt about it.

But between it's financial sector, the junction and the quality of its educational sector, it is also well positioned to recover its manufacturing base. As for timeline, I really don't know how long it will take. But they built it once; they can build it again.

Manticore is one of the wealthiest systems in space. Between its merchant marine and the junction it's been a sink for absorbing money for centuries. Its not unreasonable to assume that they are capitalized well enough already to rebuild after OB.

In ART, there is a passage commenting that the shape of the new space station had already taken for and that this time around, future expansion would be more adequately allowed for than it had been with the previous one as providing more adequate defenses.

Don

kzt" quote="Weird Harold wrote: Some of that Empire is even up to the tech and educational standards of the central planets.

Which part is this?

The part that got a few decades of peep occupation, oppression and "education" after they were flattened by the invasion? The one that they have been trying for about 6 years to rebuild? It's like East Germany in 1994, but without the easy access.

The part that is mostly occupied by 3-legged savages?

The parts that were considered backwaters under threat by OFS and barely could produce an obsolete DD?

The fact that a place is full of nice people and would be a great place to vacation doesn't mean it has any real economic power.

Talbott has a lot more people than Manticore and still has a lot less wealth on either a per capita or overall. Hence Talbott wanted to become part of the SKM and Manticore wasn't overwhelmed by how awesome this would be.

Go here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... per_capita

Manticore is Qatar on that list.
Talbott is Costa Rica.
The average SL core world is like Spain/Italy/UK.[/quote]


The problem is we don't know the tech and education level spread of the TQ. Take Rembrandt because it has been pulling itself up for 40 or 50 years it Edu and tech base could possably be 30 or 40 years behind Manticore, where as Nuncio and Dresden are over a century plus behind. Then places like Montana is probably somewhere in the middle.

Education level is by and large irrelevant. They can read and therefore they can learn. Attitude is all important. Besides most degrees are utterly useless unless they are engineering degrees.

Everyone else? Sorry, you are useless in a war when the need is integrating technology into war fighting machines and infrastructure building for mass production. All of you business majors, sorry, you are useless. All of you biology folks. Sorry you are useless outside of emergency doctors. All of you fine arts folks, sorry, you are useless other than doing nose art on LAC's. Technicians degrees and Engineers in its multiple fields, yup, we need you. Everyone else? Stuff em through technicians courses on construction related fields so they can build the infrastructure that the engineers will use for war material production. Personnel managers, nope don't even need a degree for that, just common sense and people skills. Neither of which one learns in a classroom. Life teaches one this.

Infrastructure is all important. Infrastructure requires years upon years upon years to build. It does not appear overnight. There are no snap your fingers quick fixes for lack of infrastructure.

kzt wrote:

Weird Harold wrote: Some of that Empire is even up to the tech and educational standards of the central planets.

Which part is this?

The part that got a few decades of peep occupation, oppression and "education" after they were flattened by the invasion? The one that they have been trying for about 6 years to rebuild? It's like East Germany in 1994, but without the easy access.

The part that is mostly occupied by 3-legged savages?

The parts that were considered backwaters under threat by OFS and barely could produce an obsolete DD?

The fact that a place is full of nice people and would be a great place to vacation doesn't mean it has any real economic power.

Talbott has a lot more people than Manticore and still has a lot less wealth on either a per capita or overall. Hence Talbott wanted to become part of the SKM and Manticore wasn't overwhelmed by how awesome this would be.

Go here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... per_capita

Manticore is Qatar on that list.
Talbott is Costa Rica.
The average SL core world is like Spain/Italy/UK.

Remember, San Martino had prolong, and was basically at/near Manticoran standards before the Peep conquest, and San Martino not only wasn't held for very long (in a prolong society), probably suffered less than most other Peep conquests on account of being a heavy grav world - there would have been minimal immigration, and San Martino was a fairly prosperous place before.
So, a couple decades under the Peeps, sure, but by now, San Martino has been under Manticoran control since somewhere between Honor Among Enemies and In Enemy Hands, or sometime early-mid 1911 PD. Then, in Ashes of Victory, late 1914, early 1915, San Martino requested to join the Star Kingdom of Manticore as its fourth planetary member.
Oyster Bay happened in early 1922. Call it about
three or four years under Manticoran Alliance 'occupation', which including nation/worldbuilding efforts. Call it six, six and a half years, of being a member of the Star Kingdom, roughly four of which were spent under the High Ridge government which spent a lot of time and money on domestic programs in an effort to buy votes. I rather doubt that the High Ridge government completely threw San Martino under the bus and ignored the place. Also, since San Martino joining the Star Kingdom was negotiated under the Cromarty government, helping fix/upgrade what hadn't been addressed since the liberation was probably included or heavily implied in the deal - and since it would be domestic spending and potential vote buying, it's unlikely that the High Ridge government gutted those programs or treated San Martino like they did Erewhon.
Another two years or so under the Alexander government, which knew how important San Martino was to Manticoran security against the Peeps.
Then Oyster Bay happened. San Martino has been free of the Peeps for about 10-11 years.

San Martino is doubtlessly not as well off as it could and probably would have been if the Peeps never attacked, however, the damage caused by the Peeps is likely long since recovered, and San Martino has moved on and improved.

The reason San Martin will be better off is because they are Pissed and do not want to be conquered again, therefore they pulled together and are doing everything in their power to improve THEIR OWN nation once again. When you are a slave, you have little initiative to work as all proceeds are collected by someone else. Risk Reward. Works everytime.

Kytheros wrote:Remember, San Martino had prolong, and was basically at/near Manticoran standards before the Peep conquest, and San Martino not only wasn't held for very long (in a prolong society), probably suffered less than most other Peep conquests on account of being a heavy grav world - there would have been minimal immigration, and San Martino was a fairly prosperous place before.

And don't forget Silesia. Yes it's only a set of protectorates; but even under the extremely corrupt former rule it was propserous enough to be a major trade market for Manticore. You can't make money selling there long if they don't have enough economy to afford to buy.

Given a few years of cleaning up and putting it's house in order it's got to be a net economic advantage for Manticore. Yes it doesn't have the very latest high tech stuff Manticore had; but it seems to have a better general tech base and industry than the Talbott Quadrant did prior to its annexation.

Jonathan_S wrote:Given a few years of cleaning up and putting it's house in order it's got to be a net economic advantage for Manticore. Yes it doesn't have the very latest high tech stuff Manticore had; but it seems to have a better general tech base and industry than the Talbott Quadrant did prior to its annexation.

If they could afford lots of manticore manufactured goods they clearly would be a net economic benefit. They obviously produced something that people wanted and were willing to pay for. The problem is that right now manticore has none to sell, or money to buy anything from them, and they are way on the back burner for development once that become possible to do.