Build a Fleet!

So, I've had this thought kicking around in my head for awhile now, and I am just wondering if anyone else on here thinks in the same sort of way. In short - All this talk about DDs, Frigates, the 'new' Cruiser, etc... is great, but in my view it misses the forest for the trees. What I would be interested in is an overall discussion about building an Honorverse fleet from scratch with ART technology. Eg: If you could design the optimal fleet without taking into account historical 'limits' on class names, roles, sizes, etc- what would you come up with?

Here is my view on what a complete fleet would entail:

1- Wallers
- Roles: Stand in the wall of battle and hammer it out with other capital ships. Power projection abroad - the ability to completely control the surrounding space. Home defense of the largest level. Flagships and showing the flag when needed for diplomatic purposes.

- SD(P) [Invictus]

2- Escort ships (Hyper capable)
Roles: Hyper capable escorts for Wallers. Force projection and system defense when Wallers are unavailable or would be gross overkill. Convoy escort and convoy raiding. System defense, attack, and scouting. Basically your multi-purpose ships that can play multiple roles depending upon the amount of force needed.

- BC (Battle Cruiser) [Nike]
- CR (Cruiser) [Saganami-C]
- DD (Destroyer) [Roland]

3- Fleet Support
Roles: Carry LACs to the systems they need to be at. Transport additional missile pods to where they need to go. Transport troops and supplies to where they have to be.

- CLAC (Carrier - LAC) [Aviary sized]
- ELAC (Escort carrier - LAC) Smaller in size, these ELACs can only carry 5 squadrons of LACs (plus a reserve), but have increased armor and offensive capability. Main role of convoy escort/raiding as well as being able to keep up with and provide LAC support to BC and CR forces.
- Transport [Basic troop transport]
- Supply Ship [Basic Supply ship for Food, Fuel, Parts, Missiles, etc.]
- Fleet Courier (A ship designed to be the fastest possible in H space with little to know firepower and defenses. Mainly used for communication between allied systems in 'safe' regions.

4- Escorts (non Hyper capable)
Roles: Perform system scouting and picket duty, protect the Wallers from missile fire, attack and destroy enemy scouts and damaged capital ships.

- LAC(M) (LAC - Missile Defense) Basically, a LAC optimized for anti-missile defense. Think a Katana that is further optimized with anti-missile designed Vipers and increased PD lasers.
- LAC (Traditional space superiority LAC). A LAC that is optimized for defeating other LACs in combat as well as swarming larger units from stealth. No PD lasers, instead that space is for offensive energy weapons, increased attack missile capability, or increased sensors/stealth

Anyway, what are your thoughts?

Erls wrote:So, I've had this thought kicking around in my head for awhile now, and I am just wondering if anyone else on here thinks in the same sort of way. In short - All this talk about DDs, Frigates, the 'new' Cruiser, etc... is great, but in my view it misses the forest for the trees. What I would be interested in is an overall discussion about building an Honorverse fleet from scratch with ART technology. Eg: If you could design the optimal fleet without taking into account historical 'limits' on class names, roles, sizes, etc- what would you come up with?

Here is my view on what a complete fleet would entail:

1- Wallers
- Roles: Stand in the wall of battle and hammer it out with other capital ships. Power projection abroad - the ability to completely control the surrounding space. Home defense of the largest level. Flagships and showing the flag when needed for diplomatic purposes.

- SD(P) [Invictus]

2- Escort ships (Hyper capable)
Roles: Hyper capable escorts for Wallers. Force projection and system defense when Wallers are unavailable or would be gross overkill. Convoy escort and convoy raiding. System defense, attack, and scouting. Basically your multi-purpose ships that can play multiple roles depending upon the amount of force needed.

- BC (Battle Cruiser) [Nike]
- CR (Cruiser) [Saganami-C]
- DD (Destroyer) [Roland]

3- Fleet Support
Roles: Carry LACs to the systems they need to be at. Transport additional missile pods to where they need to go. Transport troops and supplies to where they have to be.

- CLAC (Carrier - LAC) [Aviary sized]
- ELAC (Escort carrier - LAC) Smaller in size, these ELACs can only carry 5 squadrons of LACs (plus a reserve), but have increased armor and offensive capability. Main role of convoy escort/raiding as well as being able to keep up with and provide LAC support to BC and CR forces.
- Transport [Basic troop transport]
- Supply Ship [Basic Supply ship for Food, Fuel, Parts, Missiles, etc.]
- Fleet Courier (A ship designed to be the fastest possible in H space with little to know firepower and defenses. Mainly used for communication between allied systems in 'safe' regions.

4- Escorts (non Hyper capable)
Roles: Perform system scouting and picket duty, protect the Wallers from missile fire, attack and destroy enemy scouts and damaged capital ships.

- LAC(M) (LAC - Missile Defense) Basically, a LAC optimized for anti-missile defense. Think a Katana that is further optimized with anti-missile designed Vipers and increased PD lasers.
- LAC (Traditional space superiority LAC). A LAC that is optimized for defeating other LACs in combat as well as swarming larger units from stealth. No PD lasers, instead that space is for offensive energy weapons, increased attack missile capability, or increased sensors/stealth

Anyway, what are your thoughts?

Since you're starting with the ships, you're still focused on the trees. In order to see the forest, you need to start with basic assumptions.

You may want to read:

House of Steel, Building a Navy in the Honorverse, by David Weber and Christopher Weuve wrote:Introduction
Building a navy is a complicated endeavor, whether one is bending steel or turning phrases. Doing it right depends on understanding a set of key parameters that will define the structure of the navy. These parameters can be broken into six major areas:

1. Strategic Assumptions
2. Strategic Goals
3. Fleet Missions
4. Fleet Design
5. Force Size
6. Force Management

Each of these major categories builds on the one preceding it; conversely, a failure at a later step may require rethinking earlier steps, because sometimes “you can’t get there from here.” Each of these areas can be broken down into sub-topics.
By answering the questions implicit in all of these topics, you can define a navy. In this essay, David Weber teams up with a naval analyst formerly on the faculty of the US Naval War College to do just that.

It continues with 21 pages of highly useful information.

Erls wrote:So, I've had this thought kicking around in my head for awhile now, and I am just wondering if anyone else on here thinks in the same sort of way. In short - All this talk about DDs, Frigates, the 'new' Cruiser, etc... is great, but in my view it misses the forest for the trees. What I would be interested in is an overall discussion about building an Honorverse fleet from scratch with ART technology. Eg: If you could design the optimal fleet without taking into account historical 'limits' on class names, roles, sizes, etc- what would you come up with?

Here is my view on what a complete fleet would entail:

1- Wallers
- Roles: Stand in the wall of battle and hammer it out with other capital ships. Power projection abroad - the ability to completely control the surrounding space. Home defense of the largest level. Flagships and showing the flag when needed for diplomatic purposes.

- SD(P) [Invictus]

2- Escort ships (Hyper capable)
Roles: Hyper capable escorts for Wallers. Force projection and system defense when Wallers are unavailable or would be gross overkill. Convoy escort and convoy raiding. System defense, attack, and scouting. Basically your multi-purpose ships that can play multiple roles depending upon the amount of force needed.

- BC (Battle Cruiser) [Nike]
- CR (Cruiser) [Saganami-C]
- DD (Destroyer) [Roland]

3- Fleet Support
Roles: Carry LACs to the systems they need to be at. Transport additional missile pods to where they need to go. Transport troops and supplies to where they have to be.

- CLAC (Carrier - LAC) [Aviary sized]
- ELAC (Escort carrier - LAC) Smaller in size, these ELACs can only carry 5 squadrons of LACs (plus a reserve), but have increased armor and offensive capability. Main role of convoy escort/raiding as well as being able to keep up with and provide LAC support to BC and CR forces.
- Transport [Basic troop transport]
- Supply Ship [Basic Supply ship for Food, Fuel, Parts, Missiles, etc.]
- Fleet Courier (A ship designed to be the fastest possible in H space with little to know firepower and defenses. Mainly used for communication between allied systems in 'safe' regions.

4- Escorts (non Hyper capable)
Roles: Perform system scouting and picket duty, protect the Wallers from missile fire, attack and destroy enemy scouts and damaged capital ships.

- LAC(M) (LAC - Missile Defense) Basically, a LAC optimized for anti-missile defense. Think a Katana that is further optimized with anti-missile designed Vipers and increased PD lasers.
- LAC (Traditional space superiority LAC). A LAC that is optimized for defeating other LACs in combat as well as swarming larger units from stealth. No PD lasers, instead that space is for offensive energy weapons, increased attack missile capability, or increased sensors/stealth

Anyway, what are your thoughts?

You forgot (LAC) Anti-Shipping - they still have a job countering ships smaller than wallers and doing fleet recon.

That being said, You really 1st need to ask who this is for. in the Honorverse only the top 1% of navies (which is ~2 dozen navies) can field 1 or more squadrons of the wall (BB,DN,SD) - that's it... 2 dozen. There are a few more dozen which have 3-4 active ships or a white elephant or 2 of an aging BB, but wallers in the Honorverse are very rare. Most "large" navies consider a BC to be a Capitol unit. and the vast majority of navies only have LACS and DDs - maybe with a CL or CA as a Flagship. There was nothing larger than a CA in the entire Talbot cluster, and Monica's sudo-mercenary navy had less than a squadron of CAs.

The vast majority of the Honorverse cannot afford to man, operate and maintain wallers without sacrificing other essential services (however, a neighbor with his own wallers may change some people's minds about what is essential). This is why no one believes that Grayson can field such a large navy from 1 inconsequential planet (Purely on wall mass, they are in the top 5 or 6 navies).

So if you are inventing a navy for the Whatsup! system, they will not have any SDs or CLACs - and probably no BC(l)s or BC(p)s.

Assume the builder of this fleet is a sector of 15-25 wealthy Core/Shell planets that have gone their own way after the collapse of the League and they have access to tech equal to the GAs..

Basically - there is no specific threat (PRH, SL, AE, etc..) in mind. Only a strong collection of systems in an otherwise completely disorganized galaxy composed of other large nations that may or may not be friendly, pirates, raiders, and other bad actors. How would you compose your fleet to undertake all of the tasks that come with such a position?

Erls wrote:Assume the builder of this fleet is a sector of 15-25 wealthy Core/Shell planets that have gone their own way after the collapse of the League and they have access to tech equal to the GAs..

As Vince posted, but you never took the, DUH! hint, let me be a bit more forceful!

START HERE GOOBER!

House of Steel, Building a Navy in the Honorverse, by David Weber and Christopher Weuve wrote:Introduction
Building a navy is a complicated endeavor, whether one is bending steel or turning phrases. Doing it right depends on understanding a set of key parameters that will define the structure of the navy. These parameters can be broken into six major areas:

1. Strategic Assumptions
2. Strategic Goals
3. Fleet Missions
4. Fleet Design
5. Force Size
6. Force Management

Once you do this, or we also do this to flesh out the scenario, we ALL look forward, with a high degree of anticipation I might add, to a great discussion. Without the above parameters we are not discussing much at all.

Starting at #4 begs the question of #3, #2, and #1

Erls wrote:Assume the builder of this fleet is a sector of 15-25 wealthy Core/Shell planets that have gone their own way after the collapse of the League and they have access to tech equal to the GAs..

Basically - there is no specific threat (PRH, SL, AE, etc..) in mind. Only a strong collection of systems in an otherwise completely disorganized galaxy composed of other large nations that may or may not be friendly, pirates, raiders, and other bad actors. How would you compose your fleet to undertake all of the tasks that come with such a position?

Lots of light forces- DD's, cruisers. They can handle 99% of pirates and raiders along with commerce raiding in offensive ops and convoy escort duties. You also need light forces as escorts for your larger ships. A squadron or 2 of BC's and a (short?) squadron of wallers just in case you you need some more serious force projection.

Unless you are in a really bad neighborhood and need them, the wallers are overkill and money pits.

And name calling isn't necessary and is against forum rules. I reported it to Dukk, too.

If you can't be adult enough to stay civil, don't bother replying.

My mix is based on a similar idea to others, my "space" would include 15-25 wealthy and stable systems, using aRT level GA technology. We'll have a mutual defense and sector defense force, including commerce protection, etc. I'll go further and guess at an approximate ship count held by our systems as roughly equal to those held by Manticore at the time of First Hancock in aSVW.

Except...Zero SDs or DNs. If need be, let's assume that I've got final Nike class BC's one per system as my strategic reserves/home system command ships, one per core system.

I'm going to build my mobile core out of upsized ammo ships similar to those desired by Rozak, but with military grade everything and a hell of a bunch of PDLC's for self-defense, no capital ships whatever. Possible that these same ships will mount the KH-2 and/or ability to launch Mycroft control nodes. Mostly their job is just pod and missile resupply, but if needed, they can add the "waller level" hammer to any formation. Half a dozen Haven size CLACs, same reason. Force mix of 70% Katana style, 30% Shrike class.

The rest, elongated SAG-C's (or perhaps a mix of with Reliant weight but "fatter" as BC hulls, all able to to launch DDMs and ddm pods. This includes our notional 16-E control missile, and the Star Knight size CM *cruiser medium/modular*, able to be force configured per mission.

The only non-military consideration is that *all* of my convoys will also include a full military grade but only 50% armed Q-ship, say half the fighting capacity but similar size to HMAMC Wayfarer, but nearly fully automated. It's still a freight carrier (maybe 3.5MM tons of the ship), but one that can take over as the ammo ship/mini LAC deployer role in urgent situations. Likely usually captained by a newly retired flag officer or CSG who makes a percentage on successful convoys, think Bachfish plus convoy lead.

A full up task group likely includes two ammo ships, a LAC carrier, two squadron's of the BC's, four squadrons of the "new Star Knight" screen. Between any engagements, the AMMO ships are busy dropping off SDF missiles and FTL nodes to cover all of my core systems. Full fleet is four task groups.

I think that'd be enough to dissuade any bad folks from dropping on by for genetic slavery or piraty-purposes, and any nearby empire builders just won't go there.

I'm not sure it would be economically viable to escort all convoys with q-ships. If there is no surprise factor then you might as well use destroyers or cruisers that are probably smaller and cheaper to operate.

During peace-time your merchant ships will be unlikely to operate in convoys, since there is no known threat and convoys are inefficient logistically (imagine if postmen or pizza delivery drivers moved in roving packs).

A handful of q-ships trolling near known pirate threats would be all you need to use them for.

As for deliberately ignoring SDs in the build order of something the size of 15-25 wealthy core systems I think this would be a false economy in the new galactic order.

SDs have a long build time - for 'first time' builders it may be in the order of 3-4 years from drawing up plans and specifications to launching a fully operational warship.

If you get into a conflict situation with another polity they will certainly not wait for you to 'build up'. They will probably Thunderbolt you and then you will be signing the treaty of surrender on the deck of their flagship SD.

Your ammo ships will suffice for pushing smaller, weaker or lower tech opponents. They will not survive in war against an equal tech opponent. They could get nailed at extreme range by MDMs (Apollo style?), stealthy LACs or even a few spider graser torpedos. Thin hulled pod freighters are simply too fragile to survive in battle.

It is better to have a few squadrons of SDs, which would not be too great a burden for 15-25 well developed worlds to support. Consider that Haven doesn't have any wormholes and started off with a terrible economy and tech-base and they were still able to field hundreds of capital ships.

BobfromSydney wrote:Your ammo ships will suffice for pushing smaller, weaker or lower tech opponents. They will not survive in war against an equal tech opponent. They could get nailed at extreme range by MDMs (Apollo style?), stealthy LACs or even a few spider graser torpedos. Thin hulled pod freighters are simply too fragile to survive in battle.

It is better to have a few squadrons of SDs, which would not be too great a burden for 15-25 well developed worlds to support. Consider that Haven doesn't have any wormholes and started off with a terrible economy and tech-base and they were still able to field hundreds of capital ships.

I have to point out that NOTHING survives for long in heavy combat. If I'm on the strategic defense and had a choice of deploying 400 ships with the firepower of a BCP and the defenses of a DD in 2 years vs 24 SDPs in 4 years I'll go with option A. Keep in mind that A does not exclude B, it just gives you something able to do something in the near term.