Official Safehold Speculation Thread

In reply to LyonHeart and JeffEngel on Tarot and its land military contributions.

I would argue with JeffEngel to a more localized training scheme to allow a fast- and more- training time. Yes, Maikalberg is the ICA main training location, but having satellite facilities- much like a big university having satellite campuses- would enable to ICA to have more flexibility. At the same time, it might allow more specialized doctrines to be developed in addition a broad training course base, ie, how to fight in jungles, on plains, in the summer time, in the winter time, etc.

DDHvi wrote:Speculation:

Iris, having learned gunnery to protect, takes it further. Being impressed with the possibilities of unarmed combat, she organizes training in it - for the women.

Too many times, it is the women who are hurt the worst in war. This might not make a major change in this, but couldn't hurt.

This would be something nice to have happen. I doubt RFC would have women in the EoC military in worthwhile numbers anytime soon, but I recall that the Rakurai that attacked Irys and Hektor's wedding in Manchyr was female. And the fact that Sharley helped the Guard detail that defended her from the Temple Loyalist attack on St. Agtha's Convent. So, we might just see some sort of debate amongst the Allied leadership as to whether or not to have women serve in the military, and how soon.

Hi JeffEngel,

Let's remember that the ICA is Chisholm's imperial baby.

IE, most of it was and will be concentrated, equipped and trained in Chisholm.

In particular, remember that when Tarot joined the empire there was absolutely no indication of anything blowing up in the republic, while the ICA infrastructure was all still on Chisholm, almost all the training at Maikelberg.

It made no sense then to have a separate training facility created on Tarot, and while it does now, conditions certainly have changed; so when the ICA has the cadre to spare [probably after the war- when it ends in a year or two], establishing such a forward training base makes a lot of sense, but not until then.

I don't think training bases in the republic are a good idea politically for a host of reasons, unless the implication is the RSA was training them; which unfortunately the public would easily see through.

Given their very disparate organizations, joint training centers won't work either until the RSA at least updates theirs, again unlikely until after the war ends.

Your concern over time spent under sail is admirable [;)] but proper training which can only be done now at Maikelberg, where all the training battalions are, overwhelms such concerns whatever the cost in time.

By the end of the war or soon after, I expect as I've posted, there will be steam transports capable of carrying a whole regiment at a time, possibly named the 'Brigadier' class which will render most of your concerns moot.

L

JeffEngel wrote:

lyonheart wrote:So Tarot's contribution aside from those already in the ICA is more potential than actual and will need a couple years,especially if they're shipping everyone off to Maikelberg for training.

L

If you were in charge of ICA training programs, would you ship Tarotisians off to Maikelberg for training? It looks to me like you'd cut out a whole lot of shipping time - both for the trainees and for the ships used to ferry them around - by setting up a training center in Tarot or sending them to Siddarmark to train with RSA troops.

A training center in Tarot may be good for recruits out of Margaret's Land and maybe some out of Old Charis, for troops intended for use on the mainland entering it on its eastern shore. Training in Siddarmark itself among allies would put them even closer come time for deployment, although that'd be less convenient for deployment to Silkiah or against Desnair - or, for that matter, if things change and it's got to be off to Temple Bay or the Gulf of Dohlar for them.

It may make more sense in the case of officers to concentrate training at fewer, central locations, and Maikelberg would be the spot for that for the ICA - the EoC's West Point, as it were, with Helen Island as its Annapolis. But having just the same tactical and operation mindset down to details it's hard to convey in a manual isn't something needed for enlisted people, and spending fewer months at sea is a premium for them.

Hi JeffEngel,

Thanks for your thoughtful comments.

More on the bottom. **

JeffEngel wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi JeffEngel,

It's a nice theory, but unsubstantiated by any textev.

For a speculation thread, offering speculation, I'm just aiming at plausible and not contradicted by textev.

Hands on training will still take quite a while.

Granted. If there's a Corisandean force operating outside the EoC this year, it's a small one or I'll be surprised.

Chermyn was far too short handed to conduct any maneuvers, especially anything like corps level, and politically any whisper that Gahrvai was collaborating on any such maneuvers or even CPX's with Chermyn could have ignited rebellion across Corisande.

Would you rule out occasional and small-scale maneuvers? (One may want another term there for a small scale; take your pick.) I wouldn't, and I wouldn't rule out Corisandean officer observers there - perhaps ones who were allowed to observe without formal invitation. That's out on a speculative limb, and as you say, there's no evidence for it - I'm just aiming for plausible there.

Chermyn was too busy keeping a lid on things to keep up with all the changes BGV was making at Maikelberg, and I doubt the inner circle wanted any leaks of all the changes getting to Clyntahn from Corisande.

Given that Corisande only accepted becoming a part of the empire less than a year ago, with no evident eagerness to fight mother church until after Irys's wedding, I think its doubtful there's been any time for anything approaching proper training for the Corisandans.

Also granted. But the Corisandians (we need a collection of authoritative demonyms) did learn about modern weapons and tactics the hard way, and they've had time themselves to consider that and every reason to want to catch up. That won't put them caught up all the way to the newest tactics out of Maikelberg or newest tools out of Delthak, but it will put them well ahead of where they were when they lost the war. Nowadays, they'll have a different target for their military ambitions, but the time since their last war has been a time to prepare to advance those ambitions.

Gahrvai's 30,000 veterans will indeed be useful as a trained cadre for a bigger army, but it will still take 1-2 years to bring them up to speed, by which time the war may be effectively over and they end up as bored occupation troops freezing in Zion.

I'm sure there will be more excitement to be had! But yes. All I'm prepared to argue here, all I'm trying to, is that the one year figure of one to two is quite plausible. I think I'm arguing that the glass of Corisandian military preparedness is half full and you're arguing that you're not picking it up til the waiter gets done filling it.

Now I think Gahrvai will see action, but of a force far smaller than what Corisande could eventually send because its too late in the war.

L

Politically, do you suppose Corisandian or Zebediahan troops could be used to suppress rebel Chisholmian nobles? It'd be a role for them that would take less time and shipping, and may not demand the full training and equipment the ICA in Siddarmark needs. And more loyal troops would be welcome then. It just looks to me like something that would be far too sensitive to pull in soldiers from some of Chicholm's traditional enemies.

**Oh yes!

In fact I'm counting on it, and it will be delicious to see the noble Chisholmians seethe in their rage at such umbrage.

Given Zebediah's proximity, its almost a given for St. Howan, which is next to the earldom of Swayle.

I also see it as the last campaign for Emerald's 'uncle' Lord Hanbyl, the earl of Solomon, who we've only read about second hand, and from which I'd like to meet [or read about] in person or at first hand.

Politically, I think it would nail down the fact that Cayleb and Sharleyan intend to treat all citizens of the empire equally, according to their loyalty; and use the resources of the empire without regard to its origin or past history, as they deserve.

That willingness to use such available forces may cow many more Chisholmian nobles than those that get trapped into rebelling, which I expect the widow Swayle probably intends if the rest aren't more eager.

L

Hi Don,

Retraining and reequipping the RSA with rifles, then again with Mahndrayns and mortars etc is going to be the main stumbling block to putting larger numbers into the field.

I'm confident the RSA will do it well and better than last year, but its their troops, not any reinforcements from the empire, that will be where most of the alliance armies will come from.

Training in the republic could be politically awkward as I've pointed out previously; and again, the very different combat organizations make that almost impossible.

Your proposal for a "90 day wonder" quickie course has a lot of merit, and RFC could easily rig things that way; but I'd like to see Gahrvai's command include troops from the rest of the empire, as a sign of their trust, and those troops will all need to train together for some 6-9 month's, so at least a year overall at Maikelberg or in Corisande is still possible, but mainly because transport [at least 2 month's] and the weather in north Haven would push even 6 month's training back to next spring before they could get to the likely combat theaters.

Under that quick training regime, its also possible that Gahrvai finds himself approaching Temple Bay from the west and serving under BGV in Zion, which I think will amuse them both [NTM RFC].

L

n7axw wrote:I'm wondering a bit about the timetable. Could it be that what needs to be done is get groups of noncoms and junior officers to Chisholm for the so called 90 day wonder experience at the same time the rest of the troops were knocking off the rust?

Then bring them back along with some seasoned people to train their units. Then too, how much of this could be done after the Corisadians arrive in Siddarmark? It's not as though the rear areas are under threat any more. They could pick up additional training by exercising with the Protector's troops.

Then, as Lyonheart points out, it probably won't be needed. The war could well be over be the time the Corisandians could be brought into action. And, it's not as though manpower is the allies problem. The issue so far has been getting suitable weapons into the hands of the men they already have.

Don

Hi JeffEngel,

All quite true.

After the advance across France in the summer of '44, there were too many Americans who thought the war would soon be over and began to slack off or switch to peace work, who realised they needed to get back to the grindstone after the Battle of the Bulge.

I certainly agree there should be no let up in the training of new troops, but we should also recognise there will be surpluses in such troops, like the 75,000 USAAF pilots in April 1945 that were commissioned directly into the infantry after 2-3 years training and some 300+ hours as pilots, because the USAAF planners had expected 25% casualties a month from the anticipated much larger LW and Japanese air forces [navy and army], but then needing only a sixth of what they'd trained.

The effect of eager Corisandan troops, trained and equipped for winter as part of the Zion and temple occupation force, could have fascinating effects upon those of the surviving vicarate and the Go4 that insist Corisandans oppose the empire.

L

JeffEngel wrote:

n7axw wrote:I'm wondering a bit about the timetable. Could it be that what needs to be done is get groups of noncoms and junior officers to Chisholm for the so called 90 day wonder experience at the same time the rest of the troops were knocking off the rust?

Then bring them back along with some seasoned people to train their units. Then too, how much of this could be done after the Corisadians arrive in Siddarmark? It's not as though the rear areas are under threat any more. They could pick up additional training by exercising with the Protector's troops.

Then, as Lyonheart points out, it probably won't be needed. The war could well be over be the time the Corisandians could be brought into action. And, it's not as though manpower is the allies problem. The issue so far has been getting suitable weapons into the hands of the men they already have.

Don

I can't help but wonder if we're all a whole lot more breezily confident of the capture of Zion and the routing of the entirety of the mainland's military establishment than Allied leaders are. Better to keep up the forward momentum and mobilization - as much as you can, given need to train, equip, and move your people - and find yourself with troops better trained, equipped, and positioned than you in fact need them at the end, than to relax efforts and let victory slip away or be bloodily delayed out of excess optimism.

lyonheart wrote:Hi JeffEngel,

Let's remember that the ICA is Chisholm's imperial baby.

IE, most of it was and will be concentrated, equipped and trained in Chisholm.

In particular, remember that when Tarot joined the empire there was absolutely no indication of anything blowing up in the republic, while the ICA infrastructure was all still on Chisholm, almost all the training at Maikelberg.

It made no sense then to have a separate training facility created on Tarot, and while it does now, conditions certainly have changed; so when the ICA has the cadre to spare [probably after the war- when it ends in a year or two], establishing such a forward training base makes a lot of sense, but not until then.

I don't think training bases in the republic are a good idea politically for a host of reasons, unless the implication is the RSA was training them; which unfortunately the public would easily see through.

Given their very disparate organizations, joint training centers won't work either until the RSA at least updates theirs, again unlikely until after the war ends.

Your concern over time spent under sail is admirable [;)] but proper training which can only be done now at Maikelberg, where all the training battalions are, overwhelms such concerns whatever the cost in time.

By the end of the war or soon after, I expect as I've posted, there will be steam transports capable of carrying a whole regiment at a time, possibly named the 'Brigadier' class which will render most of your concerns moot.

L

Hi Lyonheart,

The strongest argument for training everybody at
Mikaelberg is that it implements and reinforces the notion that your recruits are being integrated into the armed forces of the Empire rather than having their identity be that of separate national units.

The strongest argument against it is the issue of time. If the EOC was strapped for manpower, it would make a lot of sense to train them in the various provinces where they are recruited and send in teams of junior officers and noncoms to do the job. And I really don't think your argument against training in the Republic is cogent. I would suspect new ICA units are already training in the Republic to get the finishing touches before heading out to the front.

But there really isn't a issue with time at the moment. In fact, the problem hasn't been recruiting. It has been getting arms into the hands of the men who are being trained. So as a purely speculative matter, I'm inclined to believe that recruits will continue to be sent to Chisholm which we have textev as being the normal practice.

Don

OsageOrange wrote:

DDHvi wrote:Speculation:

Iris, having learned gunnery to protect, takes it further. Being impressed with the possibilities of unarmed combat, she organizes training in it - for the women.

Too many times, it is the women who are hurt the worst in war. This might not make a major change in this, but couldn't hurt.

This would be something nice to have happen. I doubt RFC would have women in the EoC military in worthwhile numbers anytime soon, but I recall that the Rakurai that attacked Irys and Hektor's wedding in Manchyr was female. And the fact that Sharley helped the Guard detail that defended her from the Temple Loyalist attack on St. Agtha's Convent. So, we might just see some sort of debate amongst the Allied leadership as to whether or not to have women serve in the military, and how soon.

I'm not thinking about putting them into the military. It can make sense for civilians to know how to defend also. There have been cases in the US of a licensed concealed carry gun stopping an attack on them or others. And it has been shown that even Marines are vulnerable if they are in a gun-free zone. Altho some of them used themselves to draw the attackers away from other vulnerable people. In another case, an attack in a gun free zone was stopped because a man illegally had a concealed carry weapon.

Let's be blunt: some of the most vicious attacks on women require the attacker to come close. While not totally effective (what is?) civilian women trained in unarmed combat would have an ace in the hole in such a situation.

I do recall some ladies have been in combat roles. However, if a culture is going to take defense seriously, this possibility should be considered, even if just as a backup.

For that matter, if a culture pushed in particular for UAC training for females, the males just might learn to be a little bit more polite

BTW, IIRC in the last few years, in real life, the percentage of ladies applying for, training for, and getting concealed carry licenses has gone up quite a bit.

In any case, anyone wanting to provide defense by any means should get solid training, which both Sharleyan and Iris did re guns.

Safehold society might be up to the idea of arming women for a Home Guard.

Hi PeterZ,

I most certainly expect the integration of the Royal Corisandan Army into the Imperial Charisian Army, but it's going to start to happen after Corisande officially and legally joined the empire, ie after Daivyn's oath to Sharleyan probably late in February, 897.

We can quibble over whether Windshare's troopers were more mounted police than cavalry [although Koryn called them 'mounted constables'] or already part of Gahrvai's 30,000 armed 'permitted force' [very doubtful in my opinion], since calling it an army seems embarrassing besides inaccurate somehow given its size and subject status, and that Koryn thinks about the reconstituted RCA so the unnamed regency force probably didn't use the term 'army', but that is all moot now.

Nowhere do we have any textev for Gahrvai's post war 'permitted force' organization, but I'd say your numbers were way way off for both the infantry and cavalry, NTM given how little artillery Gahrvai and Doyal had at Haryl's Crossing, barely a single battalion [35 cannon]; let alone the fact the AMF textev states no artillery [November 893 chapter 3, pg 141 HB] and only smooth-bore muskets, rather different in capability from rifles, even with bayonets.

Furthermore, given the occupation force is not trained or equipped with either Mahndrayns, mortars, or angle-guns, etc there is very little purpose for them to train with the occupation troops; except to pick up some now rather obsolete very bad habits, aside from the important one of discovering they can get along very well with their former occupiers, but their inevitable cooperative operations [as in AMF] over 3-4 years should have already driven that home.

Unless you want them to enjoy the pleasure of hearing their Chisholmian drill sergeants curse them for their stupidity in adhering to such suicidal tactics.

Given the time for messages between Cherayth and Manchyr, there really hasn't been enough time for all the coordination needed before the integration ceremonies that signaled when it could legally start.

BTW, as the senior officer of the now reconstituted Royal Corisandan Army [quick work within days after Daivyn's coronation], Koryn is in a rather awkward place to go running off to the imperial army [not any 'Corisandan contingent'] as he thought he might have preferred during the wedding, unless the RCA is entirely subsumed into the ICA, which again I think is improbable.

L

PeterZ wrote:Allow me to disagree, Lyonheart. It does a heart good to consistently find pleasant disagreements to wade into.

Text states that Windshare was to be used as a mobile rapid reaction force. His troops were stationed to around Corisande to be used to quell any disorder before they got out of hand. That implies Gahrvai's infantry was more concentrated and designed to be used as the hammer for larger threats.

I don't recall the exact mix of infantry and cavalry. I would suspect that there would be somewhere between 10k-15k infantry and 15k-20k cavalry. That's a WAG and I have intention of defending that guess. In any case there are approximately 2 brigades of infantry in Gahrvai's force and likely two brigades reinforced with artillery.

Sharley and Cayleb have known for months before Irys returned to Corisande that the integration would proceed. They knew this after Irys had her epiphany. Encouraging Gahrvai's troops to train along side the occupying IC Marines well before Irys returned could have begun several months before the official induction of Corisande. That Gahrvai mused that he wanted to join the army before the assassination attempt suggests that there is an army to join. That is the Corisandian contingent of the ICA.

So, while there isn't any textev that RFC used to lead us by the nose to the conclusion that Corisande is preparing their army to integrate with the ICA, he does tend to let us interpolate from existing text. There is enough to suggest that this integration is happening.

lyonheart wrote:Hi JeffEngel,

It's a nice theory, but unsubstantiated by any textev.

Hands on training will still take quite a while.

Chermyn was far too short handed to conduct any maneuvers, especially anything like corps level, and politically any whisper that Gahrvai was collaborating on any such maneuvers or even CPX's with Chermyn could have ignited rebellion across Corisande.

Chermyn was too busy keeping a lid on things to keep up with all the changes BGV was making at Maikelberg, and I doubt the inner circle wanted any leaks of all the changes getting to Clyntahn from Corisande.

Given that Corisande only accepted becoming a part of the empire less than a year ago, with no evident eagerness to fight mother church until after Irys's wedding, I think its doubtful there's been any time for anything approaching proper training for the Corisandans.

Gahrvai's 30,000 veterans will indeed be useful as a trained cadre for a bigger army, but it will still take 1-2 years to bring them up to speed, by which time the war may be effectively over and they end up as bored occupation troops freezing in Zion.

Now I think Gahrvai will see action, but of a force far smaller than what Corisande could eventually send because its too late in the war.

L