Total $Tax Rates$ In The Honorverse? ...

One thing I have seen little mention of is the reaction of the Transstellars to the idea of an income tax. From various statements in several books, they, not the voters, actually control many of the system governments. How will they react? Will they support it or fight it?


As for the three planets that were specifically mentioned as thinking about seceding with Beowulf, are not two of them Beowulf daughter colonies?

For the big corps, what is in it for them? For example, will we end up dealing with those notorious bluenoses that the Mantees have all too many of instead of the SL's people that we we have come to an arrangement on? And will they start prying into some of those "unfortunate incidents" that we might have possibly been involved in out there? Can we make more money with SL at war? IS trade with those few hundred systems really that profitable? Will we end up with some crazed bluenose charging us for actions that some overly enthusiastic subordinate might or might not have taken that might or might not have been less than totally legal based on the entirety of the situation?

kzt wrote:For the big corps, what is in it for them? For example, will we end up dealing with those notorious bluenoses that the Mantees have all too many of instead of the SL's people that we we have come to an arrangement on? And will they start prying into some of those "unfortunate incidents" that we might have possibly been involved in out there? Can we make more money with SL at war? IS trade with those few hundred systems really that profitable? Will we end up with some crazed bluenose charging us for actions that some overly enthusiastic subordinate might or might not have taken that might or might not have been less than totally legal based on the entirety of the situation?

I think the answer to most of those questions is "Yes."

Which will cause the CEO's no little insomnia.

I expect the Transtellars who have their major financial interests tied up in the Protectorates/Verge to find that their profit/loss table will be taking a turn for the worse--and the GA will not be a bit interested in their complaints and objections. The Transtellars that are more Core/Shell-centered will be hurting from the lack of trade, but are, IMHO, more likely to back the League (or some sort of organization that will preserve their positions as top dogs.

For some transtellars, I wouldn't be surprised to see some of them make contact with SKM magnates like Hauptman and Dempsey, figuring that they can 'do a deal' with folks of similar background, who obviously control manticore as they do many of their home systems.

I fear that they will be...disappointed in more than one way. In fact, I hope the MWW can do a chapter where SL transtellars have a meeting with Klaus Hauptman, trying to save 'life as they know it." Klaus (and Stacey) just might surprise them a bit...

KNick wrote:One thing I have seen little mention of is the reaction of the Transstellars to the idea of an income tax. From various statements in several books, they, not the voters, actually control many of the system governments. How will they react? Will they support it or fight it?

The systems whose governments are effectively controlled by the transstellars are, with very few exceptions, protectorates, not full League members. At the local system level, the overwhelming majority of full League members are fairly functional democracies.

drothgery wrote:

KNick wrote:One thing I have seen little mention of is the reaction of the Transstellars to the idea of an income tax. From various statements in several books, they, not the voters, actually control many of the system governments. How will they react? Will they support it or fight it?

The systems whose governments are effectively controlled by the transstellars are, with very few exceptions, protectorates, not full League members. At the local system level, the overwhelming majority of full League members are fairly functional democracies.

Not disagreeing with you,drothgery, but even in our fairly functional democracies today, large businesses/ corporate interests have a...shall we say 'large' influence in what laws are made, whose political campaigns get funded, and how much lobby groups get in donations?

I think the Transtellars, while not in charge, do have a proportionally larger voice in many Core and Shell worlds governments. How that will play out in the future, I do not know...but it will be interesting.

Hutch wrote:Not disagreeing with you,drothgery, but even in our fairly functional democracies today, large businesses/ corporate interests have a...shall we say 'large' influence in what laws are made, whose political campaigns get funded, and how much lobby groups get in donations?

Yes, but by and large what they try to accomplish with their influence is tax and regulatory structures that help them and harm their competition (who have their own donors and lobbyists) or help their industry as a whole. They don't act like Evil Megacorps out of central casting. The Alignment-dominated transstellars do, but as Victor and Anton pointed out in ToF, that's not actually a rational way for a business to act.

I got a question for all of you. If/when the SL Collapses and the GA starts prying systems away from the collapsing League, how do those systems survive? As far as I know, all of the full member systems (Core and Shell) and probably much of the Protectorates use the Solarian dollar as their currency. When the SL collapses, -everyone- of those systems is going to be broke because the SL dollar will be worthless. That is hundreds to thousands of planets (and economies) and hundreds to trillions of people that will have just lost their financial security. What will happen then?

Now I realize that the systems will still have economic potential (industries and such), but the financial security that was backing and fueling their economies will have just vanished. That should cause a hell of a lot of chaos.

What will replace the SL dollar? I don't think it could be the Manticoran dollar, there's not enough of that currency to fill the gap. Making a new currency will mean devaluing everything and huge spikes in inflation.

Zakharra wrote:I got a question for all of you. If/when the SL Collapses and the GA starts prying systems away from the collapsing League, how do those systems survive? As far as I know, all of the full member systems (Core and Shell) and probably much of the Protectorates use the Solarian dollar as their currency. When the SL collapses, -everyone- of those systems is going to be broke because the SL dollar will be worthless. That is hundreds to thousands of planets (and economies) and hundreds to trillions of people that will have just lost their financial security. What will happen then?

Now I realize that the systems will still have economic potential (industries and such), but the financial security that was backing and fueling their economies will have just vanished. That should cause a hell of a lot of chaos.

What will replace the SL dollar? I don't think it could be the Manticoran dollar, there's not enough of that currency to fill the gap. Making a new currency will mean devaluing everything and huge spikes in inflation.

Is it in fact the case that systems no longer use their own currencies? I'm not sure of that and wouldn't want to assume so. If they do - if the Solarian credit is an additional one, not the sole one in use - then they will be in much better shape locally. System governments can still introduce their own currencies as things go badly, with conversion from Solarian credits to it via speculators/banks. I'm not saying it won't be a very rocky ride - in some ways, I'm just describing some textures of the chaos - but it won't mean the sudden and total disappearance of money.

In the longer view, no, the Manticoran dollar isn't likely to be a universal currency, but it may well be the preferred one for international commerce. I expect system governments to make more robust use of local currencies if they do exist and create them where they don't. Manticoran bankers - and Erewhonese, for example - are likely to be very, very busy, with fortunes to be made and lost. As successor states develop, they are likely to introduce their own currencies, which may take a long while to grow stable.

JeffEngel wrote:

Zakharra wrote:I got a question for all of you. If/when the SL Collapses and the GA starts prying systems away from the collapsing League, how do those systems survive? As far as I know, all of the full member systems (Core and Shell) and probably much of the Protectorates use the Solarian dollar as their currency. When the SL collapses, -everyone- of those systems is going to be broke because the SL dollar will be worthless. That is hundreds to thousands of planets (and economies) and hundreds to trillions of people that will have just lost their financial security. What will happen then?

Now I realize that the systems will still have economic potential (industries and such), but the financial security that was backing and fueling their economies will have just vanished. That should cause a hell of a lot of chaos.

What will replace the SL dollar? I don't think it could be the Manticoran dollar, there's not enough of that currency to fill the gap. Making a new currency will mean devaluing everything and huge spikes in inflation.

Is it in fact the case that systems no longer use their own currencies? I'm not sure of that and wouldn't want to assume so. If they do - if the Solarian credit is an additional one, not the sole one in use - then they will be in much better shape locally. System governments can still introduce their own currencies as things go badly, with conversion from Solarian credits to it via speculators/banks. I'm not saying it won't be a very rocky ride - in some ways, I'm just describing some textures of the chaos - but it won't mean the sudden and total disappearance of money.

In the longer view, no, the Manticoran dollar isn't likely to be a universal currency, but it may well be the preferred one for international commerce. I expect system governments to make more robust use of local currencies if they do exist and create them where they don't. Manticoran bankers - and Erewhonese, for example - are likely to be very, very busy, with fortunes to be made and lost. As successor states develop, they are likely to introduce their own currencies, which may take a long while to grow stable.

I am betting that none of the Core or Shell systems have their own currency other than the SL dollar. It would be very odd if they did. I can very well see one of the requirements of joining the Leagure, is adopting the League currency. Much like members of the EU have to adopt the euro as their currency. Look at the problem Greece is in atm. Their currency is the euro. If they drop out, they would have to instate/re-instate their own national currency, and suffer from high (almost runaway) inflation as it adjusts to the other currencies around it. I can see much the same happening to the entire SL membership (full and near full members) whose currency is based on a financial system that will soon be defunct.

Anything that comes along to replace the SL dollar is going to be severely devalued, even if it is the Manticore dollar. The problem with the Manty currency replacing the SL dollar is the simple fact there isn't a large enough supply of it, by several orders of magnitude. You're looking at a nation with several dozen worlds atm (the SEM) suddenly being used as the new default currency of several thousand moderate to highly developed/industrialized world/systems. There is no way the Manty dollar can do that. Not in a year, not in twenty years. It would bankrupt the SEM, and the GA as a whole tryoing to do that.

Now the RH might be a good alternative, but even there, trying to replace the SL dollar will bankrupt even them. All of those former SL systems are going to need something to use as a currency. Maya might have something in thre works, but I do not know. The RF probably, but even they are going to be hammered economically once the SL dollar vanishes. What will it be?

JeffEngel wrote:Is it in fact the case that systems no longer use their own currencies? I'm not sure of that and wouldn't want to assume so. If they do - if the Solarian credit is an additional one, not the sole one in use - then they will be in much better shape locally. System governments can still introduce their own currencies as things go badly, with conversion from Solarian credits to it via speculators/banks. I'm not saying it won't be a very rocky ride - in some ways, I'm just describing some textures of the chaos - but it won't mean the sudden and total disappearance of money.

In the longer view, no, the Manticoran dollar isn't likely to be a universal currency, but it may well be the preferred one for international commerce. I expect system governments to make more robust use of local currencies if they do exist and create them where they don't. Manticoran bankers - and Erewhonese, for example - are likely to be very, very busy, with fortunes to be made and lost. As successor states develop, they are likely to introduce their own currencies, which may take a long while to grow stable.

Sorry people the Solarian cred is not going to disappear overnight. The more likely senario is that those Erewhonese bankers are going to be very busy sorting out how many Banco de New Madrid creds are there in a 100 cred chip from the 5/3rd bank of Sonderman. The issuing banks are still going to exist, their top regulator is just going to disappear, plenty of interesting times for fraudsters and those who try to stop them are in the future of the core.