GA tactics

I don't reject the strategy. I think it's a fine one. I just think there are serious challenges to it that aren't yet addressed.

Indeed. A good way to enhance it would be to distract the League from this approach.

I believe that a series of raids deep inside the core worlds of the league could work finely in that direction. Just go to some wealthy or well-known system, wreck a few space installations, grab a few merchant ships and or just parade around it for a few days. It would require a certain number of warships, but in fact not an unreasonable one, and not for that long, because you just need to make a few apparitions here and there in order to mark the core systems (the one that count).

On a purely strategic or militarily point of view, those raids would not represent any sort of real threat, but since the SL government is totally corrupt and deeply in the pockets of many interstellar company, their CEO may feel directly threatened, and call for an increase of the defense of those core systems (depriving, of course, the rest of the league and the protectorate). This, coupled from the pressure coming from the citizen and governments from those system may well force them to divert a lot of forces to places where they are in fact not really needed (or useful). And thus preventing the SL from either stopping the GA from liberating other protectorate, or coming back to retake them when the GA leaves.

In fact, if those raids are made in a really spectacular way, the liberation of the protectorate may fade so much in the background that it would be nearly invisible to most people, and just look like a minor inconvenience.

So, in short, make them so much afraid of the guy knocking at the front door, even if he cannot enter, that they would not notice the other one destroying all the trees in the garden behind (and thus leading you to starvation.
This sort of strategy would lead to the fixation of a lot of the SLN, the dispersion of those forces (all core systems will want some form of protection) and remember that the one that protects everything protects nothing. With the dispersion, those forces could face defeat in detail (it would require a higher number of ships than the first raids, but due to the tech advantage, it could still be done).

I see a lot of advantage in following this strategy, because it would force the SL government to react most forcefully to the wrong threat. Only a government with a very powerful will and a strong position could do the right thing (not react to the raids, but to the protectorate erosion and launch deep penetration raids of its own). I’m not sure that all the Mandarins are smart or ready enough to affirm their will to do it. They for sure are not united enough for that. And I’m not sure they’re position is strong enough even if they should try to do it.

OlorinNight wrote:

I don't reject the strategy. I think it's a fine one. I just think there are serious challenges to it that aren't yet addressed.

Indeed. A good way to enhance it would be to distract the League from this approach.

I believe that a series of raids deep inside the core worlds of the league could work finely in that direction. Just go to some wealthy or well-known system, wreck a few space installations, grab a few merchant ships and or just parade around it for a few days. It would require a certain number of warships, but in fact not an unreasonable one, and not for that long, because you just need to make a few apparitions here and there in order to mark the core systems (the one that count).

On a purely strategic or militarily point of view, those raids would not represent any sort of real threat, but since the SL government is totally corrupt and deeply in the pockets of many interstellar company, their CEO may feel directly threatened, and call for an increase of the defense of those core systems (depriving, of course, the rest of the league and the protectorate). This, coupled from the pressure coming from the citizen and governments from those system may well force them to divert a lot of forces to places where they are in fact not really needed (or useful). And thus preventing the SL from either stopping the GA from liberating other protectorate, or coming back to retake them when the GA leaves.

In fact, if those raids are made in a really spectacular way, the liberation of the protectorate may fade so much in the background that it would be nearly invisible to most people, and just look like a minor inconvenience.

So, in short, make them so much afraid of the guy knocking at the front door, even if he cannot enter, that they would not notice the other one destroying all the trees in the garden behind (and thus leading you to starvation.
This sort of strategy would lead to the fixation of a lot of the SLN, the dispersion of those forces (all core systems will want some form of protection) and remember that the one that protects everything protects nothing. With the dispersion, those forces could face defeat in detail (it would require a higher number of ships than the first raids, but due to the tech advantage, it could still be done).

I see a lot of advantage in following this strategy, because it would force the SL government to react most forcefully to the wrong threat. Only a government with a very powerful will and a strong position could do the right thing (not react to the raids, but to the protectorate erosion and launch deep penetration raids of its own). I’m not sure that all the Mandarins are smart or ready enough to affirm their will to do it. They for sure are not united enough for that. And I’m not sure they’re position is strong enough even if they should try to do it.

This method is also a good way to piss off those systems and make them double down on keeping with the SL. Wrecking the orbital/system infrastructure of a system is a direct assault on the system's economy and a -direct- attack on the system's sovereignty. Doing the raids you are outlining is far more likely to enrage the population than make it capitulate in fear. It will also encourage those systems to spur their R&D big time.

Zakharra wrote:
This method is also a good way to piss off those systems and make them double down on keeping with the SL. Wrecking the orbital/system infrastructure of a system is a direct assault on the system's economy and a -direct- attack on the system's sovereignty. Doing the raids you are outlining is far more likely to enrage the population than make it capitulate in fear. It will also encourage those systems to spur their R&D big time.

Maybe, maybe not. You don't necessarily have to wreck their orbital infrastructure. All you really have to do is demonstrate that the League cannot protect them. Then you say something like "Look, our quarrel is not with you, but with Old Chicago. We know you didn't have anything to do with the League's policies, so let's make a deal. You withdraw your support from the League and we'll offer favored trading status with access to the wormholes in addition to access to markets in both the Haven sector and the Verge. And if the League comes calling we will help you out with that too."

There are a lot of core systems who are League members because the League offered protection and promoted trade. If the League is no longer able to do those things, then it becomes a liability to be discarded.

Don

This method is also a good way to piss off those systems and make them double down on keeping with the SL. Wrecking the orbital/system infrastructure of a system is a direct assault on the system's economy and a -direct- attack on the system's sovereignty. Doing the raids you are outlining is far more likely to enrage the population than make it capitulate in fear. It will also encourage those systems to spur their R&D big time.

Do not forget that even the core worlds are not really a unified entity: there is a lot of tension between some of them, sometimes for reasons dating back centuries ago. I believe that it was even mention once that some would be very glad to settle some of their disagreements, if the league was not there to keep a lid on it. If you hit some systems, people in some others may be more in a spirit to celebrate it than anything else.
Your aim here is to divide in order to better conquer. You just need to pick your targets smartly: Hit the most vocal against the GA the harder, and other very lightly, and for other, just show yourself for a few days and then leaves.
And even then, remember I’m not speaking about an invasion where you take full control of the planet. Then indeed, you would risk facing a lot of anger from the population. I’m speaking about wrecking only the orbitals and snapping some merchants. By doing that, most people may be hurt materially (but even then, many would have insurance), but not suffer in any other way. But what they will do is fear what could happen next, and their anger will be shared between the GA for destroying stuff, and the SL for failing to protect them efficiently. Just look at what happens in our world, quite often governments get blame for everything, even about stuff over which they have no control, even when other people may be at the source of the problems. And when those governments look powerless, the anger is even higher.
And since even in any core worlds, they are few really democratic governments, looking powerless and making the population afraid and angry against the government may lead many to question the legitimacy of this government. You may not get revolutions out of it, but if you have a lot of unrest, and that the population do not support the governments and the war, it will make it that much more difficult to act efficiently in the war.
And you have to take into account something else: if you want to hurt the League, you’ve got to hit it from time to time. The kind of war that the GA needs to make plays a lot on the reaction of the core systems on a political point of view. They need to increase the fracturing lines present even between core members. But for doing that, you need to hit the league. You just need to hit the right places, choose smartly where to apply pressure. Basically, what you need to do is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn-ta9vqoik
If you choose poorly, you won’t be able to break the wood, and you may even remain stuck in it. If you go for the existing fracturing lines, you will break it in smaller pieces quite easily.
Anyway, do not forget that the core worlds are the one that most benefited from the League, and thus are the one that have the most to lose. They will thus be harder to convince to let it go, and a direct approach in that direction may not be that successful. But if you remove the rest of the League (protectorate, shell, and all), the league will already be really weakened, and most of the interest of being a core world of the league (aka, be allowed to pillage and abuse protectorate worlds) will have been removed. They will then have the choice to remain in the ruins of the league with other core worlds (some of them which they have hated for centuries) and pay the price by keeping the war going (with more and more attacks) or make peace with someone that, after all, may have wrecked some space installation, but did not do anything more devastating (while he could have). I believe that in those conditions, many core worlds may settle for peace. And the remaining core worlds will lose more and more allies, and thus be subjected to more and more attacks just because they will be less targets for the GA to attack .

P.S.: sorry for the bad English, it definitely is not my first language (not even the second one, I'm afraid).

JeffEngel wrote:(2) means penny-packet GA pickets, which will suck up light forces in a hurry. LAC groups and system defense pods aren't available in that quantity, even though they'd likely be the best and most economical solution. A better one is going after FF forces and destroying them or accepting surrenders, so that the newly liberated systems don't have a threat locally and can risk having trivial or no space defenses. Meanwhile, FF forces are likely to start hiding at least and likely raiding where they find no opposition, so finding them will be harder. And on top of that, the Alignment can hit wherever with single Sharks, hurting newly liberated systems and making them call on anyone for help. If the GA won't - or can't - they lose face and respect, and the Renaissance Factor likely will be willing and "able" to stop those phantom attacks. (Though that's risky for the Alignment - it may make the RF suspiciously capable. Just smearing the GA with the inability to defend their friends is pretty good from their POV.)

Hmm, the MAlign could likely get much of the advantage of the Shark raids, without the risk of making the RF look suspiciously capable, if they restrict them to basically undefended systems.

If there's a patterns of never hitting a system with more than (say) a trio of DDs (no mater whose they are) then it shouldn't look too suspicious if an RA desron is enough to "deter" potential raiders and cause them to pick even easier targets.

And since you don't have to actually fight the Sharks it shouldn't look too suspicious.

Jonathan_S wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:And on top of that, the Alignment can hit wherever with single Sharks, hurting newly liberated systems and making them call on anyone for help. If the GA won't - or can't - they lose face and respect, and the Renaissance Factor likely will be willing and "able" to stop those phantom attacks. (Though that's risky for the Alignment - it may make the RF suspiciously capable. Just smearing the GA with the inability to defend their friends is pretty good from their POV.)

Hmm, the MAlign could likely get much of the advantage of the Shark raids, without the risk of making the RF look suspiciously capable, if they restrict them to basically undefended systems.

If there's a patterns of never hitting a system with more than (say) a trio of DDs (no mater whose they are) then it shouldn't look too suspicious if an RA desron is enough to "deter" potential raiders and cause them to pick even easier targets.

And since you don't have to actually fight the Sharks it shouldn't look too suspicious.

Good point. For that matter, they'd probably be safe never attacking systems with a token RF picket and very rarely attacking systems with a token GA or innocent successor state picket. The difference would be statistically insignificant with a small sample size.

Ghosts could provide deniable "mercenary" or planet-raiding "pirate" forces excellent intelligence on GA-friendly systems too. With so many systems to defend, those pickets will often be very small, very old, very minimally trained, etc., so a merc force wouldn't have to be much to stomp a carefully selected, well-scouted picket.

I think that the ideal target is not so much to attack individual core/shell systems, or take protectorates from the FF. attacking core/shell systems runs the risk of playing right in the hands of the Mandarins. While attacking the protectorates will hurt the League as whole only if a large number of the protectorates are freed but this will hurt the GA worse since it would be their responsibility to provide security both on the ground and in space which would either drain their resources quickly and open them up for losses in small units or or would make them no better than FF.

Attacking the League through its collapsing unity might be the best way. Encourage systems that are economically, militarily and politically influential to cede from the League, systems that are already inclined to do so anyway would provide new trading partners to assist Manticore's economic recovery, take away resources from the League and potentially bring allies in to the GA.

Attacking major SLN bases and damaging as many SLN warships rather outright destroying them would eliminate the Leagues power to threaten/prevent systems from ceding. This would also show that the GA can do as it pleases but is restraining itself and at the same time that the SLN cannot protect the League and its members. Go to systems that already have Defence Forces of their own and are inclined to cede and offer them trade agreements and protection by GA Task Forces. Show them that the bulk of the SLN's concentrated firepower is either destroyed attacking the territory of the SEM or it was damaged/destroyed as a preventative measure to protect any system wanting to cede.

Attack the industrial and economic power of the League by getting their member system to jump ship one by one, everyone that changes sides makes the GA stronger while taking financial and industrial power from the League. Once a few systems cede and the SLN stays on the sidelines due to lack of any ability to force them to stay .

This will force the Mandarins to rely on fewer resources while they needs everything they can get their hands on to equal the Balance of naval power and once(if) balance is achieved they will have to take back heavily industrialized systems one at a time while those systems will be united by the GA.

In the mean time the GA should also try to get as many of the former League members to unite in forming new nations where possible.

The critical thing is to not turn this into a war to the knife and rapidly end it. It there is still a war going on in 5 years the GA has lost. Actions like murdering an entire government and their families, including little kids, is precisely the kind of thing that will convince a planetary government that they need to pitch in on the side of the devil they know. Because a whole lot of the core and she'll are no more paragons of virtue than the members of the United Nations are and they don't want to deal with someone who might, unlike the SL, make them pay for their many crimes.

The list of who has been elected to the UN Commission on Human Rights is a pretty good window into how the SL will think about this.

Encourage systems that are economically, militarily and politically influential to cede from the League, systems that are already inclined to do so anyway would provide new trading partners to assist Manticore's economic recovery, take away resources from the League and potentially bring allies in to the GA.

That's all very good, but how do you plan to DO it, how do you convince those systems to switch sides without putting pressure on them.
Note that my proposition is leaning into that direction, but with a proposition on how to put enough pressure on some of those systems to convience them to switch sides.

At the moment, most, if not all core systems cannot even imagine that the SL may lose this war. So why should they switch sides to be on the loser side? No, you need to convince them first that victory may not be as sure as it seemed firstly, and that the cost of remaining in the war may be way more than what they are willing to pay.

Actions like murdering an entire government and their families, including little kids, is precisely the kind of thing that will convince a planetary government that they need to pitch in on the side of the devil they know.

I may have missed it, but I do not think anyone suggested that murdering entire governments (and their families!) was a good way to win the war. Anyway, no one in the GA will ever stand for it, so it's not a problem.

OlorinNight wrote:I may have missed it, but I do not think anyone suggested that murdering entire governments (and their families!) was a good way to win the war. Anyway, no one in the GA will ever stand for it, so it's not a problem.

That's pretty much what Terekhov did:

Shadow of Freedom
Chapter Thirty-One
(in orbit above Mobius Beta) wrote: “Why is it,” Terekhov asked conversationally, “that people like you always think you’re more ruthless than people like me?”

Something about his tone rang warning bells in the back of Yucel’s brain, but she refused to look away. She held her glare locked on him, refusing to back down, and he shrugged.

“Stilt?” he said without glancing away from Yucel.

“Yes, Sir?” a voice replied from outside his com pickup’s field of view.

“Pass the word to Colonel Simak. Then set Condition Zeus.”

“Condition Zeus, aye, aye, Sir.”

...

She frowned, wondering what the hell he was talking about.

She was still wondering two and a half seconds later when the kinetic projectile struck Lombroso Arms Tower at approximately thirty kilometers per second.

* * *
...

The projectile impacted at barely one tenth of a percent of light speed. The tower was enormous, the projectile wasn’t all that huge, and its velocity might seem positively snail-like compared to the eighty percent of light speed a Mark 23 could attain, but it was sufficient. In fact, its produced an effective yield of just over sixty-seven kilotons as it struck dead center on the tower’s roof at an angle of exactly ninety degrees and punched straight down, pithing it with a spike of plasma that vaporized everything in its path.

Admittedly, the results were positively anemic compared to those of the far heavier strikes Yucel had used to obliterate “rebellious towns” as object lessons, but that suited Aivars Terekhov just fine. The structure’s massive ceramacrete walls confined and channeled the blast, and the towers around the impact point acted as cofferdams, further confining the blast and restricting the damage. Yet the explosion still reached out to obliterate the Presidential Palace and everything else (including the residential towers in which the System Unity and Progress Party’s leadership and the majority of the transtellars’ off-world personnel had been quartered) in a three-block radius. Within the primary zone of destruction virtually nothing survived; outside it, except for shock damage, there was remarkably little devastation.