The Manpower Files

munroburton wrote:

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Weird Harold is right about the wiki--you might be better off without it. I am surprised you missed the anthology, though.

After you read tSotS, read the post in the Pearls regarding HMS Gauntlet's weapons fit. The story wasn't quite edited enough, and himself clears a few things up.

Rob

Hm, I missed that pearl. If Gauntlet was originally intended to be the first BC(L), it certainly explains why the four ex-SLN pirate CAs went down so hard, as well as why the Four Yahoos appeared to be so nervous about attacking it.

At that time, there had already been a duel between heavy cruisers of the RMN and the IAN during War of Honor and they drew. I was quite startled to find out that Solarian equipment had fallen behind so badly.

"For what it matters, Chantilly's sensor data clearly indicate that Jessica Epps was winning the engagement handily when a hit from one of Hellbarde's last laser heads apparently caused one of her fusion plants to lose containment."

Arguably that is a draw, but it seems to be one by luck (golden BB) and not because the Andies CAs were as good (on average) as the RMN's Sag-Bs (like Gauntlet or Jessica Epps)

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:We'd like to know just how much of an advantage the streak drive delivers compared to normal hyper travel vs wormhole junctions. The Solarian League has to travel the long way around to destinations now because of the final stage of Lacoon. Travel time for the League is now considerably longer than when they enjoyed the benefit of a junction.

What about the Mesan Alignment? Is the streak drive fast enough that it nullifies the need of wormholes?

Your citation says "reducing, for example, the transit time from the New Tuscany System to Mesa from forty-five to less than thirty-one standard days." That is roughly 60% of normal time; lacking further metrics, multiplying normal times for dispatch boats by 0.6 should give a good approximation of streak's advantage.

To belatedly chime in on this...
There are two quotes I found that give info on the speed advantage of the Streak drive.

They are
"It's only sixty light-years from Beowulf to Mesa via the Visigoth Wormhole. That's only five days for a streak boat" - SftS

"the voyage from New Tuscany to Mesa, which would have taken anyone else the next best thing to forty-five T-days, had taken Anisimovna less than thirty-one" - MoH

The later (which you already referred to) allows for a more precise fix. I settled on the Kappa band allowing transits of about 0.688x that of the Theta band (where normal courier ships go). Or to put it another way I settled on a velocity multiplier in the Kappa bands of around 7250; vs the 5000 for the Theta bands.

Nice, but given that wormholes can let you cover dozens or hundreds of lightyears instantly, while the Streak drive would still take about a day to cover 12 lightyears, not a wormhole replacement. (FYI a normal courier would take 1.46 days to do the same 12ly).


I'm sure there will be a few source-destination pairs that now make sense to streak direct rather than detouring through distant wormhole links; but most routes where couriers used wormholes would still want to use those same wormholes even with Streak drive (it'd take longer to bypass them than you'd save with the Streak drive)

munroburton wrote:

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Weird Harold is right about the wiki--you might be better off without it. I am surprised you missed the anthology, though.

After you read tSotS, read the post in the Pearls regarding HMS Gauntlet's weapons fit. The story wasn't quite edited enough, and himself clears a few things up.

Rob

Hm, I missed that pearl. If Gauntlet was originally intended to be the first BC(L), it certainly explains why the four ex-SLN pirate CAs went down so hard, as well as why the Four Yahoos appeared to be so nervous about attacking it.

At that time, there had already been a duel between heavy cruisers of the RMN and the IAN during War of Honor and they drew. I was quite startled to find out that Solarian equipment had fallen behind so badly.

"For what it matters, Chantilly's sensor data clearly indicate that Jessica Epps was winning the engagement handily when a hit from one of Hellbarde's last laser heads apparently caused one of her fusion plants to lose containment."

Arguably that is a draw, but it seems to be one by luck (golden BB) and not because the Andies CAs were as good (on average) as the RMN's Sag-Bs (like Gauntlet or Jessica Epps)

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:We'd like to know just how much of an advantage the streak drive delivers compared to normal hyper travel vs wormhole junctions. The Solarian League has to travel the long way around to destinations now because of the final stage of Lacoon. Travel time for the League is now considerably longer than when they enjoyed the benefit of a junction.

What about the Mesan Alignment? Is the streak drive fast enough that it nullifies the need of wormholes?

Your citation says "reducing, for example, the transit time from the New Tuscany System to Mesa from forty-five to less than thirty-one standard days." That is roughly 60% of normal time; lacking further metrics, multiplying normal times for dispatch boats by 0.6 should give a good approximation of streak's advantage.

Johnathan_S wrote:To belatedly chime in on this...
There are two quotes I found that give info on the speed advantage of the Streak drive.

They are
"It's only sixty light-years from Beowulf to Mesa via the Visigoth Wormhole. That's only five days for a streak boat" - SftS

"the voyage from New Tuscany to Mesa, which would have taken anyone else the next best thing to forty-five T-days, had taken Anisimovna less than thirty-one" - MoH

The later (which you already referred to) allows for a more precise fix. I settled on the Kappa band allowing transits of about 0.688x that of the Theta band (where normal courier ships go). Or to put it another way I settled on a velocity multiplier in the Kappa bands of around 7250; vs the 5000 for the Theta bands.

Nice, but given that wormholes can let you cover dozens or hundreds of lightyears instantly, while the Streak drive would still take about a day to cover 12 lightyears, not a wormhole replacement. (FYI a normal courier would take 1.46 days to do the same 12ly).


I'm sure there will be a few source-destination pairs that now make sense to streak direct rather than detouring through distant wormhole links; but most routes where couriers used wormholes would still want to use those same wormholes even with Streak drive (it'd take longer to bypass them than you'd save with the Streak drive)

****** *

Thanks a many for this post Johnathan. And probably mostly for understanding what I was trying to ask.

My reasons for the thought process takes me back to the Gamma Center underneath Mesa...

SWM wrote:The theoretical work (at least some of it) took place at the Gamma Center. The physical development almost certainly was done at Darius. Simoes was not very deep in the Onion, and his work could take place on Mesa, so it did. That's why he worked separately from the physical development--he was not cleared to know about Darius and had no need to know as long as the compartmentalized the theoretical work from the development.

Now I don't doubt SWM's reasoning. In fact, because of the security clearance that Simoes had, or lacked, it makes sense. But something seems off to me. A hair seems to be dangling here.

Consider the nature of the beast -- unprecedented theoretical physics development. It is a completely brave new world the MAlign has conquered. But in considering the nature of that kind of development, one would think would require some intimate discussions amongst the scientists. Textev says ixnay on all of those thoughts.

Yet, developing a streak drive wasn't something that went according to first plans. Or second. Or third ...

So, as SWM says, the theoretical work happened at the Gamma Center and results, recommendations, afterthoughts, late epiphanies, you name it was hypered out to Darius. Solutions tested. Some found to be viable. Some not so. Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

Even with the streak drive it would seem to be a very inefficient and very time consuming way to develop. And the streak drive wasn't available to assist in developing itself. It could also be rather critical to the project's failure with both ends awaiting results. The point in all this is to suggest that Darius must certainly be within a practical radius of Mesa.

"Let's get these latest results, recommendations and changes out to Darius and see how it goes. We'll be back in a few months to let you know if your present course and experiments should be canned."

Reminds me of trying to play chess by mail. "Now where was my thought process? What was I thinking last month? Doh!"

Considering the nature of this type of development, I stand by the guestimate that Darius is in relatively close proximity to Mesa.

Am I correct that textev gave it that the streak drive was the first project completed?

cthia wrote:Consider the nature of the beast -- unprecedented theoretical physics development. It is a completely brave new world the MAlign has conquered. But in considering the nature of that kind of development, one would think would require some intimate discussions amongst the scientists. Textev says ixnay on all of those thoughts.

No, it was not unprecedented at all. The text states that the developers of the streak drive based their efforts on other new developments made elsewhere in the galaxy, outside of the Alignment. The streak drive is not a revolutionary breakthrough--it is an incremental development on something that already existed. It's just an improvement on the hyper generator. Apparently, all the important developments had already been invented in other systems, but no one had previously thought of applying them to the problem of breaking through the theta wall. The streak drive isn't as big a deal as you seem to think.

Yet, developing a streak drive wasn't something that went according to first plans. Or second. Or third ...

I don't know how you come to that conclusion.

Am I correct that textev gave it that the streak drive was the first project completed?

First project? Certainly not. The Alignment has been doing hundreds of projects for hundreds of years. Most of the early projects involved genetics, of course. But they've also been working in nanotechnology, weapons development, and other things besides the hyper theory that resulted in the streak drive. The streak drive was certainly not their first successful project. And we probably have not seen all of their research results, yet, either. Some of the stuff they developed hundreds of years ago is probably obsolete by now, but some of it may have set the foundations for other things they have developed since.

cthia wrote:So, as SWM says, the theoretical work happened at the Gamma Center and results, recommendations, afterthoughts, late epiphanies, you name it was hypered out to Darius. Solutions tested. Some found to be viable. Some not so. Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

Even with the streak drive it would seem to be a very inefficient and very time consuming way to develop. And the streak drive wasn't available to assist in developing itself. It could also be rather critical to the project's failure with both ends awaiting results. The point in all this is to suggest that Darius must certainly be within a practical radius of Mesa.

"Let's get these latest results, recommendations and changes out to Darius and see how it goes. We'll be back in a few months to let you know if your present course and experiments should be canned."

Well hopefully a reasonable commute. But the actual distance is almost impossible to say because there are wormholes involved.

We know Darius is one of the Termini of the Felix wormhole.
We know "Felix was an uninhabited star system little more than ten light-years from Mannerheim" [ToF]

The problem is we don't know where Mannerheim is with relation to Mesa.
We don't know where the SGC-902-36-G system is in relation to Mesa

We know Mesa has a wormhole link to Visigoth.
We know Visigoth's junction has a 2nd terminus, but don't know where.
So we also don't know where Felix/Mannerheim or SGC-902-36-G are in relation to the Visigoth junction and it's other terminus.

So we have no idea the n-space distance that must be covered between Mesa and Darius; though as far as we know the route always ends up going through Felix.


So it's hard to say how much time delay there must be doing the experimental work out at Darius. Also it's possible that parts of the team, deeper within the Onion that Simoas actually relocated to Darius when the initial Streak Drive development moved to the point of bending iron. So at that point they may have left the Gamma Center group playing with theoretical improvements while the most trustworthy did the hands on development and testing. That would mitigate a lot of the communications lag.

Actually Felix is an inhabited system. The Prince is a friend of Benjamin Detweiler. It is the Twins (aka SGC-902-36-G) that are uninhabited.

I figured out another line of inquiry although whether notice or not is the question. We, the readers know that the Alignment has been using Streak Drive dispatch boats through Beowulf to bring them information like the location of the planned peace talks and the fact that AZ/VC are back in Manticore and talking about the Alignment.

With Mike having captured Mesa, hopefully they take a good look at traffic patterns through the Visigoth wormhole. Maybe they'll notice that a few dispatch boats are getting to Mesa much faster than anyone else.

Heck, if there's a record of the Bolide's return from New Tuscany she might even wonder how any DB could have gotten to Mesa in under 31 days. After all she does have the tac data from New Tuscany and Bolide (Aldona's person yacht) was still in system when 10th Fleet came over the hyperwall. Those RDs left behind by Bear would have gotten plenty of data about the ships in orbit after the destroyers were blown.

BrightSoul wrote:Actually Felix is an inhabited system. The Prince is a friend of Benjamin Detweiler. It is the Twins (aka SGC-902-36-G) that are uninhabited.

Felix is uninhabited according to Torch of Freedom:

Torch of Freedom
Chapter Fifty wrote:Felix was an uninhabited star system little more than ten light-years from Mannerheim. The dim K2-class star was brighter than SGC-902-36-G, and it did have one marginally habitable planet, although that was about the best anyone was ever likely to say about it. The planet itself, which had never been assigned any better name than "Felix Beta," was a fairly miserable piece of real estate, with a gravity 1.4 times that of Old Earth, an axial inclination of thirty-one degrees, and a miserly hydrosphere of barely thirty-three percent. With an average orbital radius of right on six light-minutes, it was a cold, arid, dusty, windstorm-lashed, thoroughly wretched lump of dirt, but the Alignment had been considering it as a potential site for further development anyway, because of its proximity to Mannerheim.

Hmmm, It looks like this is causing me some confusion:

Mission of Honor Chapter Forty-One wrote:"But, while I'm nagging, let's go over a couple of my concerns about our potential problem children. Clinton, I know you and Prince Felix have been friends for years, but our latest analysis is that the Siegfried Parliament is likely to balk, at least initially, when you invite Felix to join the Factor. It looks to us like an alliance—for now, at least—is likely to emerge between the most conservative of his nobles, because they're afraid of losing the power they already have, and of the growing Siegfried industrial class, which is afraid of seeing the rules change just when it's on the brink of acquiring significant political clout. The thing that worries me about it is that you and Felix are so close. I think he's likely to try to force the issue, and our analysts' opinion is that there's about a forty percent chance he'd fail. On the other hand, the very nature of the alliance we're afraid of means it's ultimately going to come apart as the nobility's and the industrialists' interests diverge or even come into direct conflict. The steady worsening of the situation around them is going to have an effect, as well, so according to those same analysts' projections, the chance that Siegfried will ultimately request annexation by the Factor rises to well above ninety percent if we indicate we're prepared to accept their decision against joining—for now—gracefully. So, I think you're going to have to handle your impulsive old fencing partner rather delicately. The invitation has to be extended, but you need to stress to him that—"

Thisa is the reason I keep thinking it is colonized. I mean it's pretty clear the twins are lifeless but I thought Felix had some population.

BrightSoul wrote:Hmmm, It looks like this is causing me some confusion:

Mission of Honor Chapter Forty-One wrote:"But, while I'm nagging, let's go over a couple of my concerns about our potential problem children. Clinton, I know you and Prince Felix have been friends for years, but our latest analysis is that the Siegfried Parliament is likely to balk, at least initially, when you invite Felix to join the Factor. It looks to us like an alliance—for now, at least—is likely to emerge between the most conservative of his nobles, because they're afraid of losing the power they already have, and of the growing Siegfried industrial class, which is afraid of seeing the rules change just when it's on the brink of acquiring significant political clout. The thing that worries me about it is that you and Felix are so close. I think he's likely to try to force the issue, and our analysts' opinion is that there's about a forty percent chance he'd fail. On the other hand, the very nature of the alliance we're afraid of means it's ultimately going to come apart as the nobility's and the industrialists' interests diverge or even come into direct conflict. The steady worsening of the situation around them is going to have an effect, as well, so according to those same analysts' projections, the chance that Siegfried will ultimately request annexation by the Factor rises to well above ninety percent if we indicate we're prepared to accept their decision against joining—for now—gracefully. So, I think you're going to have to handle your impulsive old fencing partner rather delicately. The invitation has to be extended, but you need to stress to him that—"

Thisa is the reason I keep thinking it is colonized. I mean it's pretty clear the twins are lifeless but I thought Felix had some population.

I see where that could cause confusion, especially the "when you invite Felix to join the Factor"; but it seems that's a Prince Felix of the Siegfried system.

so the [expanded] quote would be "when you invite [Prince] Felix [and his Siegfried system] to join the Factor"

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:So, as SWM says, the theoretical work happened at the Gamma Center and results, recommendations, afterthoughts, late epiphanies, you name it was hypered out to Darius. Solutions tested. Some found to be viable. Some not so. Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

Even with the streak drive it would seem to be a very inefficient and very time consuming way to develop. And the streak drive wasn't available to assist in developing itself. It could also be rather critical to the project's failure with both ends awaiting results. The point in all this is to suggest that Darius must certainly be within a practical radius of Mesa.

"Let's get these latest results, recommendations and changes out to Darius and see how it goes. We'll be back in a few months to let you know if your present course and experiments should be canned."

Well hopefully a reasonable commute. But the actual distance is almost impossible to say because there are wormholes involved.

We know Darius is one of the Termini of the Felix wormhole.
We know "Felix was an uninhabited star system little more than ten light-years from Mannerheim" [ToF]

The problem is we don't know where Mannerheim is with relation to Mesa.
We don't know where the SGC-902-36-G system is in relation to Mesa

We know Mesa has a wormhole link to Visigoth.
We know Visigoth's junction has a 2nd terminus, but don't know where.
So we also don't know where Felix/Mannerheim or SGC-902-36-G are in relation to the Visigoth junction and it's other terminus.

So we have no idea the n-space distance that must be covered between Mesa and Darius; though as far as we know the route always ends up going through Felix.


So it's hard to say how much time delay there must be doing the experimental work out at Darius. Also it's possible that parts of the team, deeper within the Onion that Simoas actually relocated to Darius when the initial Streak Drive development moved to the point of bending iron. So at that point they may have left the Gamma Center group playing with theoretical improvements while the most trustworthy did the hands on development and testing. That would mitigate a lot of the communications lag.

This is one heckuva post Johnathan!

You even supplied the exact name of my sentiment. Communication lag! There it is!

Go to the head of the class!

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:Consider the nature of the beast -- unprecedented theoretical physics development. It is a completely brave new world the MAlign has conquered. But in considering the nature of that kind of development, one would think would require some intimate discussions amongst the scientists. Textev says ixnay on all of those thoughts.

No, it was not unprecedented at all. The text states that the developers of the streak drive based their efforts on other new developments made elsewhere in the galaxy, outside of the Alignment. The streak drive is not a revolutionary breakthrough--it is an incremental development on something that already existed. It's just an improvement on the hyper generator. Apparently, all the important developments had already been invented in other systems, but no one had previously thought of applying them to the problem of breaking through the theta wall. The streak drive isn't as big a deal as you seem to think.

Yet, developing a streak drive wasn't something that went according to first plans. Or second. Or third ...

I don't know how you come to that conclusion.

Am I correct that textev gave it that the streak drive was the first project completed?

First project? Certainly not. The Alignment has been doing hundreds of projects for hundreds of years. Most of the early projects involved genetics, of course. But they've also been working in nanotechnology, weapons development, and other things besides the hyper theory that resulted in the streak drive. The streak drive was certainly not their first successful project. And we probably have not seen all of their research results, yet, either. Some of the stuff they developed hundreds of years ago is probably obsolete by now, but some of it may have set the foundations for other things they have developed since.

(do forgive my unauthorized emblazoning of your text.)

I thought it was textev. I distinctly remember text stating that development had hit a few snags. Although, I could be remembering facts regarding the spyder drive. At any rate, I won't easily accept that mankind nailed such an unprecedented project first attempt, even with someone else's notes.

I still think it is unprecedented at least in its accomplishment. If not in its overall conception. (Although, that might be argued as well since no one thought of applying it to the theta wall.) Indeed, I wasn't aware of the fact that work had been previously effected. Can you remember that reference? The sleuth in me eyes have furled.

I do indeed think that the streak drive is a big deal. It was instrumental in allowing the MAlign to achieve what they did.

Remember the old prank of hitting someone on the head behind their back very quickly, making them think it was the closest person to them? You have to he fast to execute that. Your hand has to be a streak.

It allowed them to execute the perfect murders.

The streak drive somewhat alleviates Manticore's cornered market on the communication loop.