Official Safehold Speculation Thread

Hi JeffEngel,

It's a nice theory, but unsubstantiated by any textev.

Hands on training will still take quite a while.

Chermyn was far too short handed to conduct any maneuvers, especially anything like corps level, and politically any whisper that Gahrvai was collaborating on any such maneuvers or even CPX's with Chermyn could have ignited rebellion across Corisande.

Chermyn was too busy keeping a lid on things to keep up with all the changes BGV was making at Maikelberg, and I doubt the inner circle wanted any leaks of all the changes getting to Clyntahn from Corisande.

Given that Corisande only accepted becoming a part of the empire less than a year ago, with no evident eagerness to fight mother church until after Irys's wedding, I think its doubtful there's been any time for anything approaching proper training for the Corisandans.

Gahrvai's 30,000 veterans will indeed be useful as a trained cadre for a bigger army, but it will still take 1-2 years to bring them up to speed, by which time the war may be effectively over and they end up as bored occupation troops freezing in Zion.

Now I think Gahrvai will see action, but of a force far smaller than what Corisande could eventually send because its too late in the war.

L

JeffEngel wrote:

OsageOrange wrote:*quote="WeberFan"*

Also, remember that Caleb et al invaded Corisande in 893. LAMA ends early in 897 - almost 4 years later. to you rpoint about a lot of retraining being required, I'll bet that at least SOME of that has already taken place. Granted Corisande didn't become part of the empire until much later, but I'll bet that the Corisandian army has been at least partly reconstituted. They may not have modern weapons, and they may not have all the modern doctrine, but I think they've got a good foundation and are well on their way.

*quote*
Gahrvai and Doyal, I'm sure, spent whatever "free" time they've had for years figuring out the implications of the new weapons and tactics used against them and preparing junior officers and senior NCO's to use them. With the steadily improving relationship with the ICA garrison, they've plausibly had a chance to discuss that and watch training maneuvers. A new model Corisandian army could be ready to but for getting the new weapons themselves and getting enough hands-on experience with them.

Undoubtedly, Cayleb would want to get as many forces willing to fight for the Charisian Empire from Zebediah and Corisande to Siddermark as soon as possible, because of the need for the Allies to maintain strength to resist COGA forces without being stretched too thin, as well as push these forces back.

Duke Eastshare and Baron Green Valley would undoubtedly like to see these forces, but they would also want them trained and equipped well enough to be able fight under their leadership; of course, they wouldn't want these Corisandian and Zebediahian forces to traitor either, so in any case, there would have to be a balance at first in sending in additional forces from these two new Imperial member states and knowing who to trust to send in so that they don't defect.

Of course, we don't want to forget Tarot either, because that power has also joined the Empire.

Forgetting Tarot's land capabilities may be about right though. It's another small island nation. Like Charis, its military got around on sails and oars, not feet and hooves; like Emerald, it is a lot smaller than Old Charis. Tarot's navy is already at work in imperial service - at least its personnel; it didn't have much shipping left after Armageddon Reef and didn't recover any under the Church's suspicion before becoming part of the Empire.

I'm sure it has some army and/or marine corps, which didn't suffer terribly in the Armageddon Reef campaign, but it's small, and they may even want to keep much of it on Tarot on the off-chance of some mainland raid on that part of the Empire closest to it.

lyonheart wrote:So Tarot's contribution aside from those already in the ICA is more potential than actual and will need a couple years,especially if they're shipping everyone off to Maikelberg for training.

L

If you were in charge of ICA training programs, would you ship Tarotisians off to Maikelberg for training? It looks to me like you'd cut out a whole lot of shipping time - both for the trainees and for the ships used to ferry them around - by setting up a training center in Tarot or sending them to Siddarmark to train with RSA troops.

A training center in Tarot may be good for recruits out of Margaret's Land and maybe some out of Old Charis, for troops intended for use on the mainland entering it on its eastern shore. Training in Siddarmark itself among allies would put them even closer come time for deployment, although that'd be less convenient for deployment to Silkiah or against Desnair - or, for that matter, if things change and it's got to be off to Temple Bay or the Gulf of Dohlar for them.

It may make more sense in the case of officers to concentrate training at fewer, central locations, and Maikelberg would be the spot for that for the ICA - the EoC's West Point, as it were, with Helen Island as its Annapolis. But having just the same tactical and operation mindset down to details it's hard to convey in a manual isn't something needed for enlisted people, and spending fewer months at sea is a premium for them.

lyonheart wrote:Hi JeffEngel,

It's a nice theory, but unsubstantiated by any textev.

For a speculation thread, offering speculation, I'm just aiming at plausible and not contradicted by textev.

Hands on training will still take quite a while.

Granted. If there's a Corisandean force operating outside the EoC this year, it's a small one or I'll be surprised.

Chermyn was far too short handed to conduct any maneuvers, especially anything like corps level, and politically any whisper that Gahrvai was collaborating on any such maneuvers or even CPX's with Chermyn could have ignited rebellion across Corisande.

Would you rule out occasional and small-scale maneuvers? (One may want another term there for a small scale; take your pick.) I wouldn't, and I wouldn't rule out Corisandean officer observers there - perhaps ones who were allowed to observe without formal invitation. That's out on a speculative limb, and as you say, there's no evidence for it - I'm just aiming for plausible there.

Chermyn was too busy keeping a lid on things to keep up with all the changes BGV was making at Maikelberg, and I doubt the inner circle wanted any leaks of all the changes getting to Clyntahn from Corisande.

Given that Corisande only accepted becoming a part of the empire less than a year ago, with no evident eagerness to fight mother church until after Irys's wedding, I think its doubtful there's been any time for anything approaching proper training for the Corisandans.

Also granted. But the Corisandians (we need a collection of authoritative demonyms) did learn about modern weapons and tactics the hard way, and they've had time themselves to consider that and every reason to want to catch up. That won't put them caught up all the way to the newest tactics out of Maikelberg or newest tools out of Delthak, but it will put them well ahead of where they were when they lost the war. Nowadays, they'll have a different target for their military ambitions, but the time since their last war has been a time to prepare to advance those ambitions.

Gahrvai's 30,000 veterans will indeed be useful as a trained cadre for a bigger army, but it will still take 1-2 years to bring them up to speed, by which time the war may be effectively over and they end up as bored occupation troops freezing in Zion.

I'm sure there will be more excitement to be had! But yes. All I'm prepared to argue here, all I'm trying to, is that the one year figure of one to two is quite plausible. I think I'm arguing that the glass of Corisandian military preparedness is half full and you're arguing that you're not picking it up til the waiter gets done filling it.

Now I think Gahrvai will see action, but of a force far smaller than what Corisande could eventually send because its too late in the war.

L

Politically, do you suppose Corisandian or Zebediahan troops could be used to suppress rebel Chisholmian nobles? It'd be a role for them that would take less time and shipping, and may not demand the full training and equipment the ICA in Siddarmark needs. And more loyal troops would be welcome then. It just looks to me like something that would be far too sensitive to pull in soldiers from some of Chicholm's traditional enemies.

I'm wondering a bit about the timetable. Could it be that what needs to be done is get groups of noncoms and junior officers to Chisholm for the so called 90 day wonder experience at the same time the rest of the troops were knocking off the rust?

Then bring them back along with some seasoned people to train their units. Then too, how much of this could be done after the Corisadians arrive in Siddarmark? It's not as though the rear areas are under threat any more. They could pick up additional training by exercising with the Protector's troops.

Then, as Lyonheart points out, it probably won't be needed. The war could well be over be the time the Corisandians could be brought into action. And, it's not as though manpower is the allies problem. The issue so far has been getting suitable weapons into the hands of the men they already have.

Don

n7axw wrote:I'm wondering a bit about the timetable. Could it be that what needs to be done is get groups of noncoms and junior officers to Chisholm for the so called 90 day wonder experience at the same time the rest of the troops were knocking off the rust?

Then bring them back along with some seasoned people to train their units. Then too, how much of this could be done after the Corisadians arrive in Siddarmark? It's not as though the rear areas are under threat any more. They could pick up additional training by exercising with the Protector's troops.

Then, as Lyonheart points out, it probably won't be needed. The war could well be over be the time the Corisandians could be brought into action. And, it's not as though manpower is the allies problem. The issue so far has been getting suitable weapons into the hands of the men they already have.

Don

I can't help but wonder if we're all a whole lot more breezily confident of the capture of Zion and the routing of the entirety of the mainland's military establishment than Allied leaders are. Better to keep up the forward momentum and mobilization - as much as you can, given need to train, equip, and move your people - and find yourself with troops better trained, equipped, and positioned than you in fact need them at the end, than to relax efforts and let victory slip away or be bloodily delayed out of excess optimism.

Allow me to disagree, Lyonheart. It does a heart good to consistently find pleasant disagreements to wade into.

Text states that Windshare was to be used as a mobile rapid reaction force. His troops were stationed to around Corisande to be used to quell any disorder before they got out of hand. That implies Gahrvai's infantry was more concentrated and designed to be used as the hammer for larger threats.

I don't recall the exact mix of infantry and cavalry. I would suspect that there would be somewhere between 10k-15k infantry and 15k-20k cavalry. That's a WAG and I have intention of defending that guess. In any case there are approximately 2 brigades of infantry in Gahrvai's force and likely two brigades reinforced with artillery.

Sharley and Cayleb have known for months before Irys returned to Corisande that the integration would proceed. They knew this after Irys had her epiphany. Encouraging Gahrvai's troops to train along side the occupying IC Marines well before Irys returned could have begun several months before the official induction of Corisande. That Gahrvai mused that he wanted to join the army before the assassination attempt suggests that there is an army to join. That is the Corisandian contingent of the ICA.

So, while there isn't any textev that RFC used to lead us by the nose to the conclusion that Corisande is preparing their army to integrate with the ICA, he does tend to let us interpolate from existing text. There is enough to suggest that this integration is happening.

lyonheart wrote:Hi JeffEngel,

It's a nice theory, but unsubstantiated by any textev.

Hands on training will still take quite a while.

Chermyn was far too short handed to conduct any maneuvers, especially anything like corps level, and politically any whisper that Gahrvai was collaborating on any such maneuvers or even CPX's with Chermyn could have ignited rebellion across Corisande.

Chermyn was too busy keeping a lid on things to keep up with all the changes BGV was making at Maikelberg, and I doubt the inner circle wanted any leaks of all the changes getting to Clyntahn from Corisande.

Given that Corisande only accepted becoming a part of the empire less than a year ago, with no evident eagerness to fight mother church until after Irys's wedding, I think its doubtful there's been any time for anything approaching proper training for the Corisandans.

Gahrvai's 30,000 veterans will indeed be useful as a trained cadre for a bigger army, but it will still take 1-2 years to bring them up to speed, by which time the war may be effectively over and they end up as bored occupation troops freezing in Zion.

Now I think Gahrvai will see action, but of a force far smaller than what Corisande could eventually send because its too late in the war.

L

n7axw wrote:I'm wondering a bit about the timetable. Could it be that what needs to be done is get groups of noncoms and junior officers to Chisholm for the so called 90 day wonder experience at the same time the rest of the troops were knocking off the rust?

Then bring them back along with some seasoned people to train their units. Then too, how much of this could be done after the Corisadians arrive in Siddarmark? It's not as though the rear areas are under threat any more. They could pick up additional training by exercising with the Protector's troops.

Then, as Lyonheart points out, it probably won't be needed. The war could well be over be the time the Corisandians could be brought into action. And, it's not as though manpower is the allies problem. The issue so far has been getting suitable weapons into the hands of the men they already have.

Don

I've been thinking along these lines for quite a while. But not so much to get Corisande into the war. I believe the attack on Irys and Hector effectively insured Corisande's participation. But not for some time. However, I think perhaps Garvai will escort a small cadre to be trained in Chisolm. He will be on the ground when a coup is attempted and will play a major role in preventing it. Additionally at some point he will be informed of the truth and will be brought into the inner circle.

Maximus99

I

I think many Safehold fans are over estimating the amount of time it takes to train 18th Century Soldiers for early 20th Century warfare. For their benefit the following is an extract from the 1985 FM 25-5, Training for Mobilization and War.

Table of Organization and Equipment (TOE) unit production times are essential for time-phasing the use of currently available facilities. These production times assume that training will be conducted at a minimum of six days per week, ten hours per day.
Training timelines are based on basic and advanced individual training being conducted prior to unit activation. These individual training programs can range from 12 to 52 weeks depending on the military occupational speciality being trained. These timelines also depend on:
• An installation being available to support the training.
• External training support being available.
• Unit TOE equipment available on unit activation.
• Commander, staff, and cadre available.
• External combined arms slice support (such as artillery, engineers, and sustainment support for infantry units) available.
• External evaluators available to confirm unit readiness (Final unit readiness evaluation exercise can be combined with other unit training exercises.)
• No retraining required.
Two weeks is the most frequent time projected for activation and organization with an additional week for preparation for overseas movement (POM) of battalion-size combat and combat support type units. See the following chart for projected unit production times in weeks of training for different types of units. Unit training has been subdivided into training drills and unit proficiency training. The training drills consist of team, section, squad, and platoon training. The unit proficiency training consists of company, battalion and combined arms training, and field training exercises.

Infantry Battalion (Bn) 14 weeks
Tank Bn 16 weeks
Artillery Bn 14 weeks
Division/Brigade Headquarters 10 weeks
Engineer Bn 16 weeks
Signal Units 14 weeks
Medical Units 10 weeks
Military Police Company (Co) 6 weeks
Ordnance Co (Ammunition) 14 weeks
Adjutant General Co (Personnel Services) 5 weeks
Combat Service Support Units 12 weeks

Note that there is no listing for horse cavalry units. The U.S. Army hasn't had horse cavalry as TOE units (vice table of distribution allowances organizations like the 1st Cavalry Division's horse cavalry platoon) since 1947.

USMA74 wrote: . . .
Note that there is no listing for horse cavalry units. The U.S. Army hasn't had horse cavalry as TOE units (vice table of distribution allowances organizations like the 1st Cavalry Division's horse cavalry platoon) since 1947.

... extract from the 1985 FM 25-5, Training for Mobilization and War. Raiding your bookcase?

So ... whose ghost should be invoked from OWL's memory banks? In terms of horse cavalry, it would be hard to choose from any but the American Civil War as it was the last large, strategic conflict with full use of cavalry, although one might summon 'Black Jack' Pershing for his early years in the American Southwest and Mexico. Still, from the ACW, would one choose Stuart, Hampton, Grierson, Forrest or Sheridan?

Many people will notice that bit about individual training being complete and immediately go 'but...'

First, basic infantry training is at the short end of that 12-52 weeks - the long end is for complex technical skills that simply don't exist in the ICA, although Artillery Technician is coming up fast. [even including Morse Code and cryptographic systems, I could train a signaller in some 15 weeks, possibly less, from scratch, to 1980's-level technology]

Second, people who haven't done it would be surprised just how much of the first weeks is actually spent training them to be 18th-century infantry. That's partly just nostalgia, of course, but there are reasons for it beyond "You're in the Army now!" - the disciplines of close-order drill do make a good foundation for modern extended-order maneuvers. In fact, the beginning drills of individual and section tactics training look so much like parade-square drill that they can be, and are, conducted very handily on a parade square [it looks odd, believe me]. So Garvai's 18th-century infantrymen really only have one thing to unlearn [the tighter the formation the better] as they set to work learning the new skills. This means you can easily chop 3-6 weeks off their individual training. Experienced Corisandian units, or, more correctly, Corisandian units made up of experienced troops, could be ready for deployment in as little as 26 5-days. For raw recruits, add those 30 days back in. For mounted infantry, although a cavalryman does have more to unlearn, my guess is that the above would only be increased by the time needed to instruct recruits in the care, feeding and operation of horses as well as themselves. How long that is, you'll need to find a cavalryman to ask

One final thing: I'd like to underline something that USMA74 said in passing, that I don't think was picked up on. That is that there is only so much that can be accomplished by training, and past that point more training adds nothing to skills or readiness [maintaining readiness is a completely different animal]. You have to stop training at that point and start doing. And, in war, doing involves real people creating real holes in you when you cock up. Or, even more importantly, in your boss and your buddies. That's why peacetime armies so often perform so embarrassingly coming under fire for the first time - they're overtrained and underpracticed.

USMA74 wrote:I think many Safehold fans are over estimating the amount of time it takes to train 18th Century Soldiers for early 20th Century warfare. For their benefit the following is an extract from the 1985 FM 25-5, Training for Mobilization and War.

Table of Organization and Equipment (TOE) unit production times are essential for time-phasing the use of currently available facilities. These production times assume that training will be conducted at a minimum of six days per week, ten hours per day.
Training timelines are based on basic and advanced individual training being conducted prior to unit activation. These individual training programs can range from 12 to 52 weeks depending on the military occupational speciality being trained. These timelines also depend on:
• An installation being available to support the training.
• External training support being available.
• Unit TOE equipment available on unit activation.
• Commander, staff, and cadre available.
• External combined arms slice support (such as artillery, engineers, and sustainment support for infantry units) available.
• External evaluators available to confirm unit readiness (Final unit readiness evaluation exercise can be combined with other unit training exercises.)
• No retraining required.
Two weeks is the most frequent time projected for activation and organization with an additional week for preparation for overseas movement (POM) of battalion-size combat and combat support type units. See the following chart for projected unit production times in weeks of training for different types of units. Unit training has been subdivided into training drills and unit proficiency training. The training drills consist of team, section, squad, and platoon training. The unit proficiency training consists of company, battalion and combined arms training, and field training exercises.

Infantry Battalion (Bn) 14 weeks
Tank Bn 16 weeks
Artillery Bn 14 weeks
Division/Brigade Headquarters 10 weeks
Engineer Bn 16 weeks
Signal Units 14 weeks
Medical Units 10 weeks
Military Police Company (Co) 6 weeks
Ordnance Co (Ammunition) 14 weeks
Adjutant General Co (Personnel Services) 5 weeks
Combat Service Support Units 12 weeks

Note that there is no listing for horse cavalry units. The U.S. Army hasn't had horse cavalry as TOE units (vice table of distribution allowances organizations like the 1st Cavalry Division's horse cavalry platoon) since 1947.