Official Safehold Speculation Thread

Hi Don,

The Corisandans have to be considerably retrained [ie many month's, if not near a year at least] before being allowed anywhere near a battlefield; plus integrating Chisholmians, Zebediahans, Tarotians, Emeraldians, and Charisians under Gahrvai would demonstrate the trust Cayleb and Sharleyan have in him and Corisandans in general.

Pardon the pun.

It's been around three month's, so news of the failed Rakurai attempt on Irys and Hector ought to have reached Zion by now, so that would be another subject of how Clyntahn has ruined everything he's touched the last six years.

While it's currently not safe to point out he's Midas in reverse, a lot of people in Zion and the temple have to be taking notice, and they may be avoiding Rhobair for obvious reasons, so what happens if they get lucky, or just considerably weaken the inquisition etc so Rhobair has a much easier time with his?

L

n7axw wrote:

WeberFan wrote:*quote="Eagleeye"*We will see Corisandians as a fighting force in the Siddarmark; and I wouldn't be surprised, if a certain Duke of Darcos is leading at least a part of this contingent.*quote*

I'd say Zebediahans before Corisandians. I recall from textev that they were "enlisting by hundreds and thousands." I don't recall a similar statement about the Corisandians... Keeping a solid core of troops in Corisande for now would make me a bit more comfortable anyhow... It "feels" to me like there is still a stronger temple loyalist following.

You are right about Zebediah. But I've become optimistic about Corisande now that Irys and Daivyn are home ...

That rakauri attack against Irys and Hector on their wedding day has to be about the dumbest stunt anyone has pulled in the entire series. In addition to that Manchyr had suffered about 800 casualties in previous attacks. Not a very effective way of making friends and influencing people for the TLs.

Then we have the strongly positive impact Sharleyan has made on her visits.

Finally we know that Koryn Gahrvai is wanting to transfer over to the ICA and is looking for ways of integrating Corisandian troops into the ICA.

All in all, its looking more and more like it's a case of when rather than if Corisandians will be fighting alongside their fellow citizens of the EOC.

Don

lyonheart wrote:Hi Don,

The Corisandans have to be considerably retrained [ie many month's, if not near a year at least] before being allowed anywhere near a battlefield; plus integrating Chisholmians, Zebediahans, Tarotians, Emeraldians, and Charisians under Gahrvai would demonstrate the trust Cayleb and Sharleyan have in him and Corisandans in general.

Pardon the pun.

It's been around three month's, so news of the failed Rakurai attempt on Irys and Hector ought to have reached Zion by now, so that would be another subject of how Clyntahn has ruined everything he's touched the last six years.

While it's currently not safe to point out he's Midas in reverse, a lot of people in Zion and the temple have to be taking notice, and they may be avoiding Rhobair for obvious reasons, so what happens if they get lucky, or just considerably weaken the inquisition etc so Rhobair has a much easier time with his?

A feeling... just a feeling with no textev to support it, but I think that Gahrvai would "come around" pretty quickly; Doyal (artillery) would come around VERY quickly; Windshare perhaps a little bit more slowly (recall Gahrvai's thoughts that Windshare wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed, but that he was probably one of the best cavalry leaders around).

Also, remember that Caleb et al invaded Corisande in 893. LAMA ends early in 897 - almost 4 years later. to you rpoint about a lot of retraining being required, I'll bet that at least SOME of that has already taken place. Granted Corisande didn't become part of the empire until much later, but I'll bet that the Corisandian army has been at least partly reconstituted. They may not have modern weapons, and they may not have all the modern doctrine, but I think they've got a good foundation and are well on their way.

WeberFan wrote:
Also, remember that Caleb et al invaded Corisande in 893. LAMA ends early in 897 - almost 4 years later. to you rpoint about a lot of retraining being required, I'll bet that at least SOME of that has already taken place. Granted Corisande didn't become part of the empire until much later, but I'll bet that the Corisandian army has been at least partly reconstituted. They may not have modern weapons, and they may not have all the modern doctrine, but I think they've got a good foundation and are well on their way.

Undoubtedly, Cayleb would want to get as many forces willing to fight for the Charisian Empire from Zebediah and Corisande to Siddermark as soon as possible, because of the need for the Allies to maintain strength to resist COGA forces without being stretched too thin, as well as push these forces back.

Duke Eastshare and Baron Green Valley would undoubtedly like to see these forces, but they would also want them trained and equipped well enough to be able fight under their leadership; of course, they wouldn't want these Corisandian and Zebediahian forces to traitor either, so in any case, there would have to be a balance at first in sending in additional forces from these two new Imperial member states and knowing who to trust to send in so that they don't defect.

Of course, we don't want to forget Tarot either, because that power has also joined the Empire.

OsageOrange wrote:

WeberFan wrote:
Also, remember that Caleb et al invaded Corisande in 893. LAMA ends early in 897 - almost 4 years later. to you rpoint about a lot of retraining being required, I'll bet that at least SOME of that has already taken place. Granted Corisande didn't become part of the empire until much later, but I'll bet that the Corisandian army has been at least partly reconstituted. They may not have modern weapons, and they may not have all the modern doctrine, but I think they've got a good foundation and are well on their way.

Gahrvai and Doyal, I'm sure, spent whatever "free" time they've had for years figuring out the implications of the new weapons and tactics used against them and preparing junior officers and senior NCO's to use them. With the steadily improving relationship with the ICA garrison, they've plausibly had a chance to discuss that and watch training maneuvers. A new model Corisandian army could be ready to but for getting the new weapons themselves and getting enough hands-on experience with them.

Undoubtedly, Cayleb would want to get as many forces willing to fight for the Charisian Empire from Zebediah and Corisande to Siddermark as soon as possible, because of the need for the Allies to maintain strength to resist COGA forces without being stretched too thin, as well as push these forces back.

Duke Eastshare and Baron Green Valley would undoubtedly like to see these forces, but they would also want them trained and equipped well enough to be able fight under their leadership; of course, they wouldn't want these Corisandian and Zebediahian forces to traitor either, so in any case, there would have to be a balance at first in sending in additional forces from these two new Imperial member states and knowing who to trust to send in so that they don't defect.

Of course, we don't want to forget Tarot either, because that power has also joined the Empire.

Forgetting Tarot's land capabilities may be about right though. It's another small island nation. Like Charis, its military got around on sails and oars, not feet and hooves; like Emerald, it is a lot smaller than Old Charis. Tarot's navy is already at work in imperial service - at least its personnel; it didn't have much shipping left after Armageddon Reef and didn't recover any under the Church's suspicion before becoming part of the Empire.

I'm sure it has some army and/or marine corps, which didn't suffer terribly in the Armageddon Reef campaign, but it's small, and they may even want to keep much of it on Tarot on the off-chance of some mainland raid on that part of the Empire closest to it.

Corisande had a respectable army prior to the conquest. They were allowed 30,000 for keeping order after the surrender. I would suspect that others from that pool of vets could be induced to sign up with Gahrvai's encouragement.

They already have the foundational skills of a soldier so it would be a matter of knocking off the rust. Then they would need to be updated tacticly. Some of that updating could be done by cadres of ICA officers sent to Corisande for the purpose and some be training exercises in the field. I won't speculate on a timeframe here.

My point is that by now there are lots of Corisandians who wouldn't mind getting their pound of fleeh from the Temple.

Don

n7axw wrote:Corisande had a respectable army prior to the conquest. They were allowed 30,000 for keeping order after the surrender. I would suspect that others from that pool of vets could be induced to sign up with Gahrvai's encouragement.

They already have the foundational skills of a soldier so it would be a matter of knocking off the rust. Then they would need to be updated tacticly. Some of that updating could be done by cadres of ICA officers sent to Corisande for the purpose and some be training exercises in the field. I won't speculate on a timeframe here.

My point is that by now there are lots of Corisandians who wouldn't mind getting their pound of fleeh from the Temple.

Don

If, and it is a big if with no text evidence, Corisandia kept their best 30,000 soldiers (or at least the best 30,000 that could tolerate working with the EOC), then they have at great cadre on which to build. That cadre could easily provide the leadership (commissioned, warrent, and noncommissioned officer) for an army ten times its size. Think the 100,000 man Army that Germany had before Hitler took over in the 1920's and 1930's. With such an experienced cadre their contingent would only take about six months to train to some form of combat capability. Twelve months training would bring them to about as high a level as you can get from just training. See the U.S. Army official history on training ground forces during World War Two. (Green book series and the obsolete U.S. Army publication on training during war.)

USMA74 wrote:

n7axw wrote:Corisande had a respectable army prior to the conquest. They were allowed 30,000 for keeping order after the surrender. I would suspect that others from that pool of vets could be induced to sign up with Gahrvai's encouragement.

They already have the foundational skills of a soldier so it would be a matter of knocking off the rust. Then they would need to be updated tacticly. Some of that updating could be done by cadres of ICA officers sent to Corisande for the purpose and some be training exercises in the field. I won't speculate on a timeframe here.

My point is that by now there are lots of Corisandians who wouldn't mind getting their pound of fleeh from the Temple.

Don

If, and it is a big if with no text evidence, Corisandia kept their best 30,000 soldiers (or at least the best 30,000 that could tolerate working with the EOC), then they have at great cadre on which to build. That cadre could easily provide the leadership (commissioned, warrent, and noncommissioned officer) for an army ten times its size. Think the 100,000 man Army that Germany had before Hitler took over in the 1920's and 1930's. With such an experienced cadre their contingent would only take about six months to train to some form of combat capability. Twelve months training would bring them to about as high a level as you can get from just training. See the U.S. Army official history on training ground forces during World War Two. (Green book series and the obsolete U.S. Army publication on training during war.)

Those 30,000 are scattered around Corisande for the purpose making sure that sparks don't become conflagrations, a measure deemed necessary right after the armistice and Hektor's murder. So they are deployed as small units. With the situation becoming more normal, much of the law and order, keeping the peace sorts of things can probably be given back to the locals.

But you are right. It is a nice start. In BHD, IIRC, we saw a potential manpower pool of about 150,000 trained military personnel that could be tapped and we are not really told that we were seeing everything.

Don

JeffEngel wrote:Forgetting Tarot's land capabilities may be about right though. It's another small island nation. Like Charis, its military got around on sails and oars, not feet and hooves; like Emerald, it is a lot smaller than Old Charis. Tarot's navy is already at work in imperial service - at least its personnel; it didn't have much shipping left after Armageddon Reef and didn't recover any under the Church's suspicion before becoming part of the Empire.

I'm sure it has some army and/or marine corps, which didn't suffer terribly in the Armageddon Reef campaign, but it's small, and they may even want to keep much of it on Tarot on the off-chance of some mainland raid on that part of the Empire closest to it.

This is undoubtedly gonna be true in a big way, but I'm certain there are those on Tarot who have felt used/abused by the COGA, and would be willing to enlist to help fight to get some sort of "payback." Of course, if Cayleb and Sharly get a more active recruitment program up, short of actual conscription, in the new EOC territories (Corisande, Tarot, Zebediah), they would be able to get a near term manpower boost. But remember that The Allies have about 150-200 million people for their population, vs roughly 800 million under COGA and its forces- of course Merlin thinks about this (it was either in MTAT or LAMA, I don't remember which novel off the top of my head). This would be a minor contribution on Tarot's part in terms of land-based forces, but still a pool of military personnel to call on.

Hi OsageOrange,

If Tarot were able to spare 2% of it's population to go fight the land war, that would be only 220,000 men, and at least a year to train them according to USMA74, although another year of training in exercises to train not only them but more importantly their officers who need the experience, might be a good idea.

First, there were evidently already quite a number of Tarotians who were killed fighting in the Kiplinger forest under EHM, from the casualty textev in LaMA, which may not be surprising at all given what the ICA pays compared to how wretched things were when Tarot became part of the empire.

There's been no indication of any imperial pressure to cut back production of flintlocks or cannon by private manufacturers for internal use since then for any province [Corisande wasn't then part of the empire], in fact imperial aid in improving iron quality and production seems immediately implied, to improve the King's power vis-a-vis his own nobles, in case they caused any trouble.

I can't help wondering where those rifles stored on merchant ships in SC harbor might have come from, with Emerald as another possible source; then given what the republic would have paid for any rifles it could get after the SoS, even at 5-10 times what they cost, I imagine there are big contracts for more rifles with all Tarotian and Emerald rifle makers along with all non-government weapon manufacturers in Charis etc.

So Tarot's contribution aside from those already in the ICA is more potential than actual and will need a couple years,especially if they're shipping everyone off to Maikelberg for training.

L

OsageOrange wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:Forgetting Tarot's land capabilities may be about right though. It's another small island nation. Like Charis, its military got around on sails and oars, not feet and hooves; like Emerald, it is a lot smaller than Old Charis. Tarot's navy is already at work in imperial service - at least its personnel; it didn't have much shipping left after Armageddon Reef and didn't recover any under the Church's suspicion before becoming part of the Empire.

I'm sure it has some army and/or marine corps, which didn't suffer terribly in the Armageddon Reef campaign, but it's small, and they may even want to keep much of it on Tarot on the off-chance of some mainland raid on that part of the Empire closest to it.

This is undoubtedly gonna be true in a big way, but I'm certain there are those on Tarot who have felt used/abused by the COGA, and would be willing to enlist to help fight to get some sort of "payback." Of course, if Cayleb and Sharly get a more active recruitment program up, short of actual conscription, in the new EOC territories (Corisande, Tarot, Zebediah), they would be able to get a near term manpower boost. But remember that The Allies have about 150-200 million people for their population, vs roughly 800 million under COGA and its forces- of course Merlin thinks about this (it was either in MTAT or LAMA, I don't remember which novel off the top of my head). This would be a minor contribution on Tarot's part in terms of land-based forces, but still a pool of military personnel to call on.

Hi Weberfan,

I like Koryn Gahrvai a lot, and I suspect he and Nimue may be a future item, but he still has a lot to learn about modern war as practiced by the ICA.

The ICA's doctrine and equipment changes since 893 represents several major paradigm shifts that will take more than some after dinner conversations to catch up on, since we're talking about compressing almost 70 years of Earth's history from the invention of the minie ball to the German Storm troopers of 1917.

Remember Harless knew rifles and field artillery had changed things, but that was an intellectual awareness as LaMA pointed out, not one of experience.

Of course, Gahrvai already knows that much; but a corps based strategy, storm trooper tactics, mortars, indirect fire, landmines, and dragoons with rifles require more than just a vague intellectual awareness, assuming they got that much information from Maikelberg when they're a conquered territory still under suspicion, so I strongly doubt it; and even if he and Doyal 'got it' already [which I also doubt], they'd still have to retrain their whole army for several month's minimum if not a year given the experience the US Army and George C Marshall had with their 'division making machine' in WWII, so they 'get it'.

It will take several month's if not at least a year to learn these things and practice them well enough for battle proficiency.

My father's experience before the Korean war with the 1 year draft demonstrated just how pitiful a year was for adequate training; during that whole period they never got to regimental training, let alone at the divisional or corps level before they had to start all over again, the Korean war caught them literally with their pants down in terms of only starting company or battery level training.

General Chermyn didn't have any Mahndrayns or mortars nor could he conduct corps training maneuvers etc, even if he wanted to share them with Gahrvai, which I doubt, given the various security issues involved, while any useful training with flintlocks substituting for Mahndrayns is quite limited when none have seen one etc.

For all the romance Windshare may have with some readers, the cavalry tactics he loves are now suicidal, so he should remain in Corisande, where it will still work.

There are probably a lot of other Corisandans who are too wedded to the past to accept the new who should stay too.

L

WeberFan wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi Don,

The Corisandans have to be considerably retrained [ie many month's, if not near a year at least] before being allowed anywhere near a battlefield; plus integrating Chisholmians, Zebediahans, Tarotians, Emeraldians, and Charisians under Gahrvai would demonstrate the trust Cayleb and Sharleyan have in him and Corisandans in general.

Pardon the pun.

It's been around three month's, so news of the failed Rakurai attempt on Irys and Hector ought to have reached Zion by now, so that would be another subject of how Clyntahn has ruined everything he's touched the last six years.

While it's currently not safe to point out he's Midas in reverse, a lot of people in Zion and the temple have to be taking notice, and they may be avoiding Rhobair for obvious reasons, so what happens if they get lucky, or just considerably weaken the inquisition etc so Rhobair has a much easier time with his?

A feeling... just a feeling with no textev to support it, but I think that Gahrvai would "come around" pretty quickly; Doyal (artillery) would come around VERY quickly; Windshare perhaps a little bit more slowly (recall Gahrvai's thoughts that Windshare wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed, but that he was probably one of the best cavalry leaders around).

Also, remember that Caleb et al invaded Corisande in 893. LAMA ends early in 897 - almost 4 years later. to you rpoint about a lot of retraining being required, I'll bet that at least SOME of that has already taken place. Granted Corisande didn't become part of the empire until much later, but I'll bet that the Corisandian army has been at least partly reconstituted. They may not have modern weapons, and they may not have all the modern doctrine, but I think they've got a good foundation and are well on their way.