tech gap

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:But if they can field a DD size missile defense ship for every LAC the GA has, does it matter if it is a bit bigger target? It will have a much deeper magazine to compensate. If FF can manage to get to their own range basket, they could manage to hurt older ships (like Reprise, Cometary, etc )or small independent system stuff.

That is one possibility, and given it is for small ships, it might be doable; but I doubt that they can build/rebuild enough to protect a full SD fleet. At least in time to help. But still, an option I imagine the brighter folks (there must be a few around) at SLN HQ might be considering.

Of course, there is the coming money crunch to actually do the work...

And there is also the problem that the SLN could trash their rear areas--Grand Fleet may be able to accomplish miracles, but it is still one fleet, in one place. If lots of verge systems start going up in smoke, that tide of violence may well disperse the GA as much as it does the SLN/FF, as they both try (for very different reasons) to keep a lid on the violence exploding on the frontiers.

<snip>

If they can get some useful missile screening vessels and stay out of the way of the post-buttercup ships, they could do a fair bit of trouble to Manticore's verge trading partners, and venturesome independent freighters; the trouble for the GA is that despite the wormhole network it still takes time to move ships around.

I doubt Kingsford will send the ships all the way to Haven or Silesia, though, for two reasons. First, because it takes a long time to move ships and the Sollie public lacks the patience to wait the months it would take for their Navy to get there (and report back) and second because they lack the logistical support for operations away from their central support bases.

The Malign tactic of stirring up the protectorates may actually even things out a bit, and slow any GA offensive. Not what they intended, maybe, but if the RMN/GA splits ships off to all they Seraphims out there. . . . it might work out after all.

I do agree that the GA may find itself short of support and, for lack of a better word, garrison units for all their new responsiblities. Thier SD(P)'s can go virtually anywhere but despite what RFC has shown us, the newer light units are still limited in supply and for now, that's all Manticore or Grayson are going to have for a couple of years at minimum. And they can't be everywhere.

So Manticore may be using lots of older ships (we saw it in Talbott and at the Nolan wormhole) to flesh out groups and these could be vunerable to the SLN.

That is, if the SLN knows they are....

I wonder if the RHN still has some of their old BB's around...they could be sufficient deterrent to a BC group.

And, after looking at the "sword from the south" snippets, I wonder if the MWW might skip 50 or 60 years between novels. . . . .

Well, IIRC, that was his original intent when the plan was to kill Honor off at the battle of Manticore and have the kids deal with the MAlignment. And he could still have this story arc come to a conclusion and leave enough open for it to re-open 60-90 years later, with Honor retired (or perhaps in Caparelli's job) and the young folks we see now taking the battle lead.

We shall see...eventaully.


Rob[/quote]

Jonathan_S wrote:That said we've seen one counter-example (which Rob already noted) of a system, Nuncio, that (presumably) doesn't have advanced node tech but still got a quicker (and much heavier) LAC. The 15,000 - 18,000 ton Nuncian LACs had a max accel of 500g. That's less that the curve predicts (544.2g - 543.1g; respectively) but far more than any pre-282 LAC we've seen. I'd guess their extra 30-50% mass over a Highlander would have gone mostly towards propulsion...

That was an awfully useful application of mass, mind you.

Maybe Nuncio had some peculiar technical advances it worked out on its own due to relative isolation, like Grayson's inertial compensator, that made for an exceptionally fast LAC design without the whole Manticoran package behind newer, higher LAC speeds. Alternatively, maybe its LAC's had received some recent refitting for it.

The Nuncio LAC's are strange in any case.

JeffEngel wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:That said we've seen one counter-example (which Rob already noted) of a system, Nuncio, that (presumably) doesn't have advanced node tech but still got a quicker (and much heavier) LAC. The 15,000 - 18,000 ton Nuncian LACs had a max accel of 500g. That's less that the curve predicts (544.2g - 543.1g; respectively) but far more than any pre-282 LAC we've seen. I'd guess their extra 30-50% mass over a Highlander would have gone mostly towards propulsion...

That was an awfully useful application of mass, mind you.

Maybe Nuncio had some peculiar technical advances it worked out on its own due to relative isolation, like Grayson's inertial compensator, that made for an exceptionally fast LAC design without the whole Manticoran package behind newer, higher LAC speeds. Alternatively, maybe its LAC's had received some recent refitting for it.

The Nuncio LAC's are strange in any case.

Jonathan_S, you say that your curve predicts a higher accel? Maybe their compensator efficiency was lower, but they used more massive nodes? As Jeff said, a good reason to add mass. . . .


My own guess was that they just used bigger beta nodes on the S-282 (and in Nuncio) than the ones the RMN used for the antique Highlander. One ship that did that but got no advantage from it was the original Mars class. . . . because Haven was losing ground in compensator efficiency, and didn't manage to steal the tech before they built the new (very heavy)ships.

As a side note, I also assumed Nuncio bought its LACs from someone else (Rembrandt?). Their own tech base was supposed to be poorer than pre-alliance Grayson.


regards,
Rob

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:As a side note, I also assumed Nuncio bought its LACs from someone else (Rembrandt?). Their own tech base was supposed to be poorer than pre-alliance Grayson.


regards,
Rob

Pre-alliance Grayson had its own LAC's - I think they were home-built, but I welcome correction and wouldn't be shocked by it either.

And even then - if Nuncio bought its LAC's elsewhere, but presumably nearby, wherever it bought them from may still have been isolated enough to have an idiosyncratic tech base for purposes of LAC acceleration. Less likely, granted, but not impossible. Still, I'd rate higher the likelihood of idiosyncratic LAC design, with more mass for more acceleration. If you're designing LAC's not as police or customs cutters (really big pinnaces) but instead as sublight, minimal time on station destroyers, you'd demand warship acceleration and be entirely happy to build the thing larger than a typical LAC to get it.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Jonathan_S, you say that your curve predicts a higher accel? Maybe their compensator efficiency was lower, but they used more massive nodes? As Jeff said, a good reason to add mass. . . .


My own guess was that they just used bigger beta nodes on the S-282 (and in Nuncio) than the ones the RMN used for the antique Highlander. One ship that did that but got no advantage from it was the original Mars class. . . . because Haven was losing ground in compensator efficiency, and didn't manage to steal the tech before they built the new (very heavy)ships.

As a side note, I also assumed Nuncio bought its LACs from someone else (Rembrandt?). Their own tech base was supposed to be poorer than pre-alliance Grayson.


regards,
Rob

Yep, the accel curve predicted higher accels for those tonnages. Here are the LACs I have specs on, their stated accel, their "curve" accel and the percent of "curve" accel they could achieve.

10,250 tons; 409.6g; 546.01g (75.0%); Program 13-class (RHN) 1835 PD
11,250 tons; 409.3g; 545.64g (75.0%); Highlander-class (RMN) 1843 PD
11,250 tons; 409.3g; 545.64g (75.0%); Faith-class (GSN) 1891 PD
12,250 tons; 409.1g; 545.27g (75.0%); Mazur-class (SCN) 1875 PD
15,000 tons; 500g__; 544.24g (91.9%); 15,000 ton LAC (NSF) UNKN PD
18,000 tons; 500g__; 543.12g (92.1%); 18,000 ton LAC (NSF) UNKN PD
17,750 tons; 573.2g; 543.22g (105.5%); Series 282-class (RMN) 1904 PD
20,250 tons; 636.0g; 542.29g (117.3%); Shrike-class (RMN) 1912 PD
21,250 tons; 635.5g; 541.91g (117.3%); Shrike-B-class (RMN) 1914 PD
20,750 tons; 635.8g; 542.10g (117.3%); Ferret-class (RMN) 1914 PD
19,500 tons; 640.4g; 542.57g (118.0%); Katana-class (GSN) 1917 PD


Disclaimers:
I have very few trustworthy data points below 60,000 tons so it's possible the numbers are a bit off for something as tiny as a LAC.

Also the denser modern RMN LACs might be natively quicker than their tonnage implies since they don't have the same density as the starships the curves are calibrated for; and compensators appear much more sensitive to volume than to actual mass (hence why an empty freighter or SD(P) doesn't gain significant acceleration)

Finally while we know Nuncio's LACs were between 15-18k tons we don't actually know the tonnages of the few that were pulling 500g. They might have all been the smallest ones and the 18k ton ones might be slightly more sluggish.

JeffEngel wrote:Pre-alliance Grayson had its own LAC's - I think they were home-built, but I welcome correction and wouldn't be shocked by it either.

And even then - if Nuncio bought its LAC's elsewhere, but presumably nearby, wherever it bought them from may still have been isolated enough to have an idiosyncratic tech base for purposes of LAC acceleration. Less likely, granted, but not impossible. Still, I'd rate higher the likelihood of idiosyncratic LAC design, with more mass for more acceleration. If you're designing LAC's not as police or customs cutters (really big pinnaces) but instead as sublight, minimal time on station destroyers, you'd demand warship acceleration and be entirely happy to build the thing larger than a typical LAC to get it.

If you are building them in lieu of DDs, then they aren't really LACs, though. But even Montana bought all its spacecraft, I think.

Differences in technical knowledge, background, and differing requirements lead to differences that could be . . . . exploitable. Maybe even very useful. Now, if we only knew what they were. . .

I never saw an acceptable term for a non-hyper destroyer grade vessel. I thoroughly detest "HAC".

A corvette is an armed dispatch boat, and a frigate (for most navies) is a corvette with two arms; a non-hyper ship the size of a dispatch boat could load a lot of firepower, but would anyone build it? And, with the Shrike's density levels, you'd have to build an analogue up to around 40K tons or so, wouldn't you?

Corvettes were only mentioned (once, i think) in Silesia; and "frigate" was usually used for pirates, or very small system navies. The problem is, I don't see any chance of the SLN developing something like that for a hypothetical defender. Someone else, maybe. The role of missile defender would be sort of like those ships optimized for AD in WWII though; I would really want them to go with the Fleet.

Jonathan_S, thanks for the table data. Jaynes' or SITs, I assume, was the source of the unfamiliar LACs.

Rob

From a post to Baen's Bar BuShips dated October 27, 2002:   Naval Refits

Note that some of the late model pre-pod ships in the RMN and the GSN are in a somewhat different category from their older consorts. Some of them were built after the probable dimensions for the MDM were already known, and they were given larger launchers, bigger magazines, and outside ammo handling equipment while still on the building ways. Those ships need no refit to handle the MDM through their broadside launchers. (Think of this as the USN's decision to design "outsized" torpedo tubes into its latest generation of attack subs so that if bigger weapons come along, they'll be able to fire them from existing platforms.) In addition, some of the Ghost Rider tech was engineered backward into smaller missiles which are, in effect, only 2-stage weapons. These are carried by ships like the Edward Saganami-class CAs and their contemporary BCs, which didn't have the hull capacity for all-up, full-scale MDMs. And all current-build RMN and GSN missiles have improved drives, even if they are only single-stage weapons, courtesy of the research which went into Ghost Rider. Which means that they have superior acceleration and better powered-attack range than their opponents.

This was written back in 2002, but it seems relevant irt the sollies catching up, and missile range/performance in general. I bolded the last part. It is part of a larger post in the pearls called Naval Refits, found at the link below.

Rob
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Harrington/82/1

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:I never saw an acceptable term for a non-hyper destroyer grade vessel. I thoroughly detest "HAC".

A corvette is an armed dispatch boat, and a frigate (for most navies) is a corvette with two arms; a non-hyper ship the size of a dispatch boat could load a lot of firepower, but would anyone build it? And, with the Shrike's density levels, you'd have to build an analogue up to around 40K tons or so, wouldn't you?

Corvettes were only mentioned (once, i think) in Silesia; and "frigate" was usually used for pirates, or very small system navies. The problem is, I don't see any chance of the SLN developing something like that for a hypothetical defender. Someone else, maybe. The role of missile defender would be sort of like those ships optimized for AD in WWII though; I would really want them to go with the Fleet.

Jonathan_S, thanks for the table data. Jaynes' or SITs, I assume, was the source of the unfamiliar LACs.

Rob

Well, corvettes were also mentioned multiple times in the Manticore Ascendant (Travis Long) books/story. But you're correct that the only modern reference was in HAE
"Schiller's heaviest unit was a corvette, and nothing that small would want to irritate anything which mounted a ship of the wall's grasers."

(Incidentally Schiller was also the site of one of the confrontations with the Andie cruisers during War of Honor)

We've been told elsewhere that a (modern) frigate is the smallest hyper-capable warship. So I don't know if that makes a corvette bigger than a frigate, a local name for a frigate, or what.
I've previously wondered whether (given the Silesian governments distaste for letting potential independence movements have access to hyper capable warships) corvettes were a larger non-hyper-capable warship. Say the firepower, layout, and accel of a frigate, or even a small destroyer, but no hyper ability.

However we just don't know.


Oh, and yes I gleaned those couple unfamilar LACs from Jaynes and SITS. (Project-13 being listed in both, while the Mazur was only in SITS)

Jonathan_S wrote:

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:I never saw an acceptable term for a non-hyper destroyer grade vessel. I thoroughly detest "HAC".

A corvette is an armed dispatch boat, and a frigate (for most navies) is a corvette with two arms; a non-hyper ship the size of a dispatch boat could load a lot of firepower, but would anyone build it? And, with the Shrike's density levels, you'd have to build an analogue up to around 40K tons or so, wouldn't you?

Corvettes were only mentioned (once, i think) in Silesia; and "frigate" was usually used for pirates, or very small system navies. The problem is, I don't see any chance of the SLN developing something like that for a hypothetical defender. Someone else, maybe. The role of missile defender would be sort of like those ships optimized for AD in WWII though; I would really want them to go with the Fleet.

Jonathan_S, thanks for the table data. Jaynes' or SITs, I assume, was the source of the unfamiliar LACs.

Rob

Well, corvettes were also mentioned multiple times in the Manticore Ascendant (Travis Long) books/story. But you're correct that the only modern reference was in HAE
"Schiller's heaviest unit was a corvette, and nothing that small would want to irritate anything which mounted a ship of the wall's grasers."

(Incidentally Schiller was also the site of one of the confrontations with the Andie cruisers during War of Honor)

We've been told elsewhere that a (modern) frigate is the smallest hyper-capable warship. So I don't know if that makes a corvette bigger than a frigate, a local name for a frigate, or what.
I've previously wondered whether (given the Silesian governments distaste for letting potential independence movements have access to hyper capable warships) corvettes were a larger non-hyper-capable warship. Say the firepower, layout, and accel of a frigate, or even a small destroyer, but no hyper ability.

However we just don't know.


Oh, and yes I gleaned those couple unfamilar LACs from Jaynes and SITS. (Project-13 being listed in both, while the Mazur was only in SITS)

Are we certain that Corvettes are hypercapable? Perhaps they were a form of Heavy LAC tht was retired by the RMN as Commerce protection and pirate suppression rose on their priority mission list.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:Pre-alliance Grayson had its own LAC's - I think they were home-built, but I welcome correction and wouldn't be shocked by it either.

And even then - if Nuncio bought its LAC's elsewhere, but presumably nearby, wherever it bought them from may still have been isolated enough to have an idiosyncratic tech base for purposes of LAC acceleration. Less likely, granted, but not impossible. Still, I'd rate higher the likelihood of idiosyncratic LAC design, with more mass for more acceleration. If you're designing LAC's not as police or customs cutters (really big pinnaces) but instead as sublight, minimal time on station destroyers, you'd demand warship acceleration and be entirely happy to build the thing larger than a typical LAC to get it.

If you are building them in lieu of DDs, then they aren't really LACs, though. But even Montana bought all its spacecraft, I think.

Well - it's still massing only 18k tons or so, so it's not remotely as capable as a destroyer in any case. But you can still design along such lines, with that as an idea of what you'd want: within the limits of an 18k ton hull, making little provision for supplies or crew comfort or independent repair or maintenance, and no hypergenerator, Warshawski sails, alpha nodes, or hyper log, build this thing to move and fight.

Differences in technical knowledge, background, and differing requirements lead to differences that could be . . . . exploitable. Maybe even very useful. Now, if we only knew what they were. . .

I never saw an acceptable term for a non-hyper destroyer grade vessel. I thoroughly detest "HAC".

A corvette is an armed dispatch boat, and a frigate (for most navies) is a corvette with two arms; a non-hyper ship the size of a dispatch boat could load a lot of firepower, but would anyone build it? And, with the Shrike's density levels, you'd have to build an analogue up to around 40K tons or so, wouldn't you?

It depends on your standards. If you're aiming at something that, in groups of two or more, can threaten a small single Verge pirate enough that they go away, your demands are for something with a lot less tooth than the Shrike, which may get away with a lot less tonnage and expense.

It's also something that would never do for Manticore or Haven, something that would embarrass a League SDF, and would not be adequate for a Silesian threat environment. But for a Talbott Cluster system, it may be about right.

Corvettes were only mentioned (once, i think) in Silesia; and "frigate" was usually used for pirates, or very small system navies. The problem is, I don't see any chance of the SLN developing something like that for a hypothetical defender. Someone else, maybe. The role of missile defender would be sort of like those ships optimized for AD in WWII though; I would really want them to go with the Fleet.

Jonathan_S, thanks for the table data. Jaynes' or SITs, I assume, was the source of the unfamiliar LACs.

Rob

Right. For a missile defense unit, the SLN would need something that could move, easily, with the fleet. CLAC operations with a 40k ton not-light attack craft would be a miserable chore, and would take them building a sublight craft with enough accel and adequate systems and the CLAC. That's not happening in the remaining lifetime of the League, and I doubt they're even going to try for R&D that long-range. So they're practically stuck trying to use DD's in that role - which isn't too far off from their historical fleet role anyway. (They used to be on the fringes of the wall for defense against shenanigans; now they would be up front and to the sides, to shoot down at the incoming missiles.)

Their trouble there is that they'd have to design and build these things - much faster and easier than designing and building more radical departures like LAC's and big things like CLAC's, but still troublesome - or pull in FF units for refit this way, and FF is thin, busy, and scattered. It's one of the least bad hardware options they've got, I suppose, but it's still a bad one.