tech gap

Wasn't there a line in one of the short novels that implied that Charles was liberated by Harrington in Silesia?*
It was the novel where Haven tried to mess with Andermani comm systems.

*In the story "Lets Dance".

Hutch wrote:Jeff Engle does a good job above, as does Somtaaw and Valen; I'll just add on a few comments to show I was paying attention....

I think the OP mentioned the critical piece; time.
The SL/SLN may well have developments in micro-fusion, FTL communication, real DDM/MDM's on-going; hell, they might have even made breakthroughs on some of them, which have been held in bureaucratic limbo (because rebuilding a fleet is hard and expensive, especially when everyone already knows that you have the most powerful fleet in the Galaxy...). But now the veil has been lifted and those developments will now be front and center.

But then you have to validate and test them and then re-design your ships (or build new ones) to accept the new equipment, which means a lot of engineering and construction...which means we are talking several years...while the GA merrily knocks out your bases and shipyards, setting your time-line even further back.

Not to mention some of those systems, as mentioned above, will be associated with the RF or Beowulf (or their own interests) and will be leaving the League in droves.

The best the SLN can hope for is (1) Enhanced Pod development, which are faster to build and can be equipped with larger missiles and (2) Onboard software to counter Dragon's Teeth/Dazzlers and GA countermissiles.

That won't let the ISLN win; but it might give them a chance if the odds are high enough.

OT borrow from ST: Generations, "Time is the Fire in which we Burn." And sure as anything, the SL is going to burn.

I agree with the time factor and most of the comments previously posted--but one of the things to remember too is that the SLN deployed tech is better than what Haven had when the 1st war started, and that, as I believe al-Fahnudafi said, the League could be better than Manticore in some things, even if the Navy wasn't keeping up.

There really isn't much time; and the League is still trying to figure out what all sort of damage the closure of the wormholes and loss of shipping is going to do to them. One thing they must do, of necessity, is try to build some sort of effective screening unit.

To me, that would seem to be a destroyer or light cruiser hull, with no offensive armament, just missile defense. They might get a headstart on that by converting older Ramparts/War Harvests, while they work out a better design. Replace a Ramparts 5 missile offense with 10 cm launchers, and the lasers with PD clusters. . . .

They will be trying for MDMs, but their Cataphract isn't quite there yet; their version of the "baffle" doesn't let them put the impeller rings close together, they shielded a drive well apart from the initial drive band. But the Malign may have gotten there after all. Even so, they are still dealing with their more limited fire control for range and for numbers of missiles. . . .

And, there is still tech the Sollies haven't noticed--like the off-bore capability of the cruisers; haven't recognized the difference between capital missiles from pods (ala Byng) or internal tubes (from Zunker); don't have a clear idea how much accel advantage their opponents have.

But if they can field a DD size missile defense ship for every LAC the GA has, does it matter if it is a bit bigger target? It will have a much deeper magazine to compensate. If FF can manage to get to their own range basket, they could manage to hurt older ships (like Reprise, Cometary, etc )or small independent system stuff.

And there is also the problem that the SLN could trash their rear areas--Grand Fleet may be able to accomplish miracles, but it is still one fleet, in one place. If lots of verge systems start going up in smoke, that tide of violence may well disperse the GA as much as it does the SLN/FF, as they both try (for very different reasons) to keep a lid on the violence exploding on the frontiers.


I doubt they will try to build any type LAC right away--they still haven't seen Manti LAC groups in action except at BOMA2, and I don't know if they got any good sensor data back. If the GA decided Filareta's attack constituted a declaration of war--if so, why give them any sensor data at all? Or just the data from their own ships, which ought to be so swamped in missile wedges that they couldn't even see what was going on with the RMN ships. . . .

If they can get some useful missile screening vessels and stay out of the way of the post-buttercup ships, they could do a fair bit of trouble to Manticore's verge trading partners, and venturesome independent freighters; the trouble for the GA is that despite the wormhole network it still takes time to move ships around.

I doubt Kingsford will send the ships all the way to Haven or Silesia, though, for two reasons. First, because it takes a long time to move ships and the Sollie public lacks the patience to wait the months it would take for their Navy to get there (and report back) and second because they lack the logistical support for operations away from their central support bases.

The Malign tactic of stirring up the protectorates may actually even things out a bit, and slow any GA offensive. Not what they intended, maybe, but if the RMN/GA splits ships off to all they Seraphims out there. . . . it might work out after all.

And, after looking at the "sword from the south" snippets, I wonder if the MWW might skip 50 or 60 years between novels. . . . .


Rob

But the SLN aren't just behind in current technology. There isn't just a tech gap, there is also an experience gap. They haven't been fighting any real wars since vacuum tubed televisions were the norm in the Honorverse. Their tactics are sorely lacking.


I have heard many of you say that Bachfisch isn't ready for a real command when he is twice as experienced as an SLN officer. Plus he's not inherently stupid. Remember when the Peeps tech was in shouting distance but their officers were beating themselves, until they got back on-balance?

SLN officers would still be off-balance tactically. Not has just the tech drastically changed since the SLN last fought a real war, but doctrine -- threat levels -- is unrecognizable.

They have to overcome the tech and the tech book.

Then, they have those big bad blustering egos to overcome.

I know that many of you grew weary of my campaign for more SLN vs. GA battles, but I crave a chance to see an SLN fleet that is at least wise to the threat level when the tech is almost on a par -- it comes down to tactics and strategy.

"That won't work idiots. That was proved at the Battle of ___."

"You definitely shouldn't try that!"

"These guys are complete imbeciles!"

My point is, if White Haven thought fighting experienced Peeps was like pushing baby chicks into a stream of near pike? Then fighting the SLN should be like lighting the stream and watching the SLN push themselves -- epiphany!: that was the Second Battle of Manticore!

cthia wrote:But the SLN aren't just behind in current technology. There isn't just a tech gap, there is also an experience gap. They haven't been fighting any real wars since vacuum tubed televisions were the norm in the Honorverse. Their tactics are sorely lacking.


I have heard many of you say that Bachfisch isn't ready for a real command when he is twice as experienced as an SLN officer. Plus he's not inherently stupid. Remember when the Peeps tech was in shouting distance but their officers were beating themselves, until they got back on-balance?

SLN officers would still be off-balance tactically. Not has just the tech drastically changed since the SLN last fought a real war, but doctrine -- threat levels -- is unrecognizable.

They have to overcome the tech and the tech book.

Then, they have those big bad blustering egos to overcome.

I know that many of you grew weary of my campaign for more SLN vs. GA battles, but I crave a chance to see an SLN fleet that is at least wise to the threat level when the tech is almost on a par -- it comes down to tactics and strategy.

"That won't work idiots. That was proved at the Battle of ___."

"You definitely shouldn't try that!"

"These guys are complete imbeciles!"

My point is, if White Haven thought fighting experienced Peeps was like pushing baby chicks into a stream of near pike? Then fighting the SLN should be like lighting the stream and watching the SLN push themselves -- epiphany!: that was the Second Battle of Manticore!

I think the closest we're likely to see something like that outside of the occasional small ship vs ship action is likely to be at Beowulf.
Anywhere else, it's likely to be the GA taking the initiative and it's Operation Buttercup all over again, or the GA has no reason to not simply blow away SLN forces on sight, rather than let them close.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:I doubt they will try to build any type LAC right away--they still haven't seen Manti LAC groups in action except at BOMA2, and I don't know if they got any good sensor data back. If the GA decided Filareta's attack constituted a declaration of war--if so, why give them any sensor data at all? Or just the data from their own ships, which ought to be so swamped in missile wedges that they couldn't even see what was going on with the RMN ships. . . .

If they can get some useful missile screening vessels and stay out of the way of the post-buttercup ships, they could do a fair bit of trouble to Manticore's verge trading partners, and venturesome independent freighters; the trouble for the GA is that despite the wormhole network it still takes time to move ships around.

Plus we don't know if they've cracked the advanced beta node technology that has been key to the Series-282, and newer, LACs.

Without that their LACs would accelerate even slower than their SDs; making for a very sub-optimal anti-missile screening unit. So there's yet another reason they might look towards a DD based anti-missile units you were speculating about.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:I doubt they will try to build any type LAC right away--they still haven't seen Manti LAC groups in action except at BOMA2, and I don't know if they got any good sensor data back. If the GA decided Filareta's attack constituted a declaration of war--if so, why give them any sensor data at all? Or just the data from their own ships, which ought to be so swamped in missile wedges that they couldn't even see what was going on with the RMN ships. . . .

If they can get some useful missile screening vessels and stay out of the way of the post-buttercup ships, they could do a fair bit of trouble to Manticore's verge trading partners, and venturesome independent freighters; the trouble for the GA is that despite the wormhole network it still takes time to move ships around.

Plus we don't know if they've cracked the advanced beta node technology that has been key to the Series-282, and newer, LACs.

Without that their LACs would accelerate even slower than their SDs; making for a very sub-optimal anti-missile screening unit. So there's yet another reason they might look towards a DD based anti-missile units you were speculating about.

There are some nice advantages to a DD based unit - deeper magazines so a longer effective time on station and the ability to self deploy and exit a system. The downsides are the ship can be targeted much more easily., the crew is quite large (~300), and you have a limited amount of equipment you can place on the hull.

An SLN Escort DD may have the defensive capability of 2-3 RMN LACS, with slightly deeper mags.

Jonathan_S wrote:Plus we don't know if they've cracked the advanced beta node technology that has been key to the Series-282, and newer, LACs.

Without that their LACs would accelerate even slower than their SDs; making for a very sub-optimal anti-missile screening unit. So there's yet another reason they might look towards a DD based anti-missile units you were speculating about.

Is the mass penalty from a full set of alpha and beta nodes that significant? If that's what it took to bypass the lack of beta-squared node technology, why not build a LAC with those and simply omit the hyper generator and a significant amount of bunkerage?

If it only adds about 5,000 tons to a Shrike counterpart, it's probably the most viable combat unit they'll be able to produce anytime soon. From what I recall, this wasn't previously done because alpha nodes are expensive.

munroburton wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Plus we don't know if they've cracked the advanced beta node technology that has been key to the Series-282, and newer, LACs.

Without that their LACs would accelerate even slower than their SDs; making for a very sub-optimal anti-missile screening unit. So there's yet another reason they might look towards a DD based anti-missile units you were speculating about.

Is the mass penalty from a full set of alpha and beta nodes that significant? If that's what it took to bypass the lack of beta-squared node technology, why not build a LAC with those and simply omit the hyper generator and a significant amount of bunkerage?

If it only adds about 5,000 tons to a Shrike counterpart, it's probably the most viable combat unit they'll be able to produce anytime soon. From what I recall, this wasn't previously done because alpha nodes are expensive.

I think there might also have been compensator improvements (derived from Grayson compensators) involved in the improved performance as well.

Kytheros wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Plus we don't know if they've cracked the advanced beta node technology that has been key to the Series-282, and newer, LACs.

Without that their LACs would accelerate even slower than their SDs; making for a very sub-optimal anti-missile screening unit. So there's yet another reason they might look towards a DD based anti-missile units you were speculating about.

munroburton wrote:Is the mass penalty from a full set of alpha and beta nodes that significant? If that's what it took to bypass the lack of beta-squared node technology, why not build a LAC with those and simply omit the hyper generator and a significant amount of bunkerage?

If it only adds about 5,000 tons to a Shrike counterpart, it's probably the most viable combat unit they'll be able to produce anytime soon. From what I recall, this wasn't previously done because alpha nodes are expensive.

I think there might also have been compensator improvements (derived from Grayson compensators) involved in the improved performance as well.

I thought Series 282 didn't have beta^2 nodes, just heavier nodes. The beta^2 nodes were introduced with the Shrike (Project Anzio?). Older LACs like the Highland class just had very weak wedges (nodes were small, probably to keep mass down), which didn't take full advantage of their compensators. After all, they weren't intended to attack warships, just herd merchies.

Munroburton,s if I understand your comment, as far as I know, there is about a third of the mass saving with the newer beta nodes. They are more massive, but fewer. But I don't recall anything about not having a full set of Alpha nodes on any ship that wasn't damaged.

FWIW you get a real idea of the difference, though, looking at the difference in ship size vs mass with the Highlander(ca.12ktons) and the S-282 (ca.17Ktons) or Shrike (ca 20Ktons); whatever the SLN may have in the lab, they haven't bothered with the sort of miniaturization tech the RMN has developed, and it is the fact that the RMN put a DD-capability (in fire control, EW, sensors) into a hull that is much smaller than the Highlander which is what is going to make the difference. The Highlander was over 140m long; the S-282 shrank to @120m, and the Shrike to @70 meters.

I think they won't match that miniaturization any time soon, so a Sollie Lac that had a Shrikes' performance would have to mass twice as much; and therefore, wouldn't be worth building. That and the fact that they don't have any shortages of bodies, and so are less likely to look for crew-reducing tech right away.

Also, FWIW, the old Lacs in Nuncio had an accel of 500g's, which was higher than I would have expected.

Regards,

Rob

Kytheros wrote:

munroburton wrote:Is the mass penalty from a full set of alpha and beta nodes that significant? If that's what it took to bypass the lack of beta-squared node technology, why not build a LAC with those and simply omit the hyper generator and a significant amount of bunkerage?

If it only adds about 5,000 tons to a Shrike counterpart, it's probably the most viable combat unit they'll be able to produce anytime soon. From what I recall, this wasn't previously done because alpha nodes are expensive.

I think there might also have been compensator improvements (derived from Grayson compensators) involved in the improved performance as well.

There were compensator improvements; but early on they weren't where the bulk of the improvement came from.

House of Steel tells us the at launch Series 282-class – LAC was able to pull 573.2g (though by IEH they could pull "over six hundred gravities of acceleration").
without the improved compensator, according to my acceleration curve spreadsheet, they would have been able to pull 543.2g. But without the improved beta nodes they'd have been limited to around 409g (like almost all the old LACs we've seen; RMN Highlander-class, RHN Program 13-class, GSN Faith-class, SCN Mazur-class)

So without cracking the advanced nodes (or paying the mass penalty for adding alpha nodes -- more nodes, more impeller rooms, more power to drive all that) simply improving compensators won't help LACs acceleration; their current nodes aren't powerful enough to max out the old-style compensators. (But it'll help other warships)

What I've been calling advanced nodes aren't the beta squared nodes (those came later and allowed reduction in overall node mass) but they're whatever improvements allowed a 282 to be the "first LAC to mount an impeller ring powerful enough to accelerate it to the limits of its inertial compensator". That had to be a tech breakthrough and not just everybody else deciding to give their LACs virtually identical accel.


That said we've seen one counter-example (which Rob already noted) of a system, Nuncio, that (presumably) doesn't have advanced node tech but still got a quicker (and much heavier) LAC. The 15,000 - 18,000 ton Nuncian LACs had a max accel of 500g. That's less that the curve predicts (544.2g - 543.1g; respectively) but far more than any pre-282 LAC we've seen. I'd guess their extra 30-50% mass over a Highlander would have gone mostly towards propulsion...