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The Magna Carta

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The Magna Carta
Post by DDHvi   » Wed Aug 05, 2015 8:26 am

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Eight hundred years ago, Magna Carta was signed in England. It limited the power of the king for the first time. It is from Magna Carta, and not from some French atheist of the eighteenth century, that we derive our idea of legally binding the government to respect human rights.


At present, the trend is to unlimit the power of government, through rules, regulations, and bad judgements.

In this context, it is worth re-reading George Orwell's story, "1984." Fiction does not connect with reality, but it can resonate with it. Orwell's story section where words are made to mean whatever the big shots want them to mean is a strong resonance :!:

What kind of government says its health care can't afford to keep people alive -- but will pay to change their gender? Yours! Welcome to the Obama administration, located at the intersection of illogical and outrageous.


is only one example
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Re: The Magna Carta
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:10 pm

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DDHvi wrote:
Eight hundred years ago, Magna Carta was signed in England. It limited the power of the king for the first time. It is from Magna Carta, and not from some French atheist of the eighteenth century, that we derive our idea of legally binding the government to respect human rights.


At present, the trend is to unlimit the power of government, through rules, regulations, and bad judgements.

In this context, it is worth re-reading George Orwell's story, "1984." Fiction does not connect with reality, but it can resonate with it. Orwell's story section where words are made to mean whatever the big shots want them to mean is a strong resonance :!:

What kind of government says its health care can't afford to keep people alive -- but will pay to change their gender? Yours! Welcome to the Obama administration, located at the intersection of illogical and outrageous.


is only one example


aaaarrrrghhhh. Another example of our useless and inadequate education.


Kings, nobles, and everyone else in a medieval society depended more on tradition and custom than on written laws; and the Anglo-Normans took the social organization, and administrative and tax structures they inherited from the House of Wessex without much change, at first, because the long wars with the Danes had made the Anglo monarchy more powerful than other contemporary dynasties from the continent.

The Magna Carta limited King John (a Plantagenet) of England from stealing land and property from the nobility (the guys who had land and property) and giving it to his friends/supporters. If he hadn't already gone far beyond what was considered "legal" and customary, the nobles wouldn't have pressed for it, and it was all about them and their rights, not some general universal human rights.

And it did nothing at all for commoners, or the "common good" or the rights of anyone at all who wasn't a member of the peerage.

You don't list the sources of your quotes. Just trolling?

Rob
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Re: The Magna Carta
Post by biochem   » Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:59 am

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Kings, nobles, and everyone else in a medieval society depended more on tradition and custom than on written laws; and the Anglo-Normans took the social organization, and administrative and tax structures they inherited from the House of Wessex without much change, at first, because the long wars with the Danes had made the Anglo monarchy more powerful than other contemporary dynasties from the continent.

The Magna Carta limited King John (a Plantagenet) of England from stealing land and property from the nobility (the guys who had land and property) and giving it to his friends/supporters. If he hadn't already gone far beyond what was considered "legal" and customary, the nobles wouldn't have pressed for it


Thus establishing the importance of a clearly enunciated written rights aka a constitution of sorts. When the rights are "legal" and customary only, it is much easier to eat away at them as John was doing. He simply went to far, to fast to be successful. If he was smarter, he could have nibbled on the "legal" and customary rights his whole reign and slowly accomplished his desires.

it was all about them and their rights, not some general universal human rights


Democracy was established one step at a time. In this case the franchise was slowly expanded and expanded again and again... step after step until today's true democracy was established. It's not not the only path to democracy but it's not an unusual one. Many countries which are democracies today followed a similar path.
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Re: The Magna Carta
Post by munroburton   » Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:39 am

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biochem wrote:
Kings, nobles, and everyone else in a medieval society depended more on tradition and custom than on written laws; and the Anglo-Normans took the social organization, and administrative and tax structures they inherited from the House of Wessex without much change, at first, because the long wars with the Danes had made the Anglo monarchy more powerful than other contemporary dynasties from the continent.

The Magna Carta limited King John (a Plantagenet) of England from stealing land and property from the nobility (the guys who had land and property) and giving it to his friends/supporters. If he hadn't already gone far beyond what was considered "legal" and customary, the nobles wouldn't have pressed for it


Thus establishing the importance of a clearly enunciated written rights aka a constitution of sorts. When the rights are "legal" and customary only, it is much easier to eat away at them as John was doing. He simply went to far, to fast to be successful. If he was smarter, he could have nibbled on the "legal" and customary rights his whole reign and slowly accomplished his desires.

it was all about them and their rights, not some general universal human rights


Democracy was established one step at a time. In this case the franchise was slowly expanded and expanded again and again... step after step until today's true democracy was established. It's not not the only path to democracy but it's not an unusual one. Many countries which are democracies today followed a similar path.


I wouldn't call what we have today a true democracy, nor even a truly representative democracy. Just as many changes have occurred, there will be many more to come. The problem is always entrenched interests resistant to change, because the status quo benefits them and the most popularly-desired adjustments threatens that.
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Re: The Magna Carta
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:12 pm

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biochem wrote:
Thus establishing the importance of a clearly enunciated written rights aka a constitution of sorts. When the rights are "legal" and customary only, it is much easier to eat away at them as John was doing. He simply went to far, to fast to be successful. If he was smarter, he could have nibbled on the "legal" and customary rights his whole reign and slowly accomplished his desires.[/quote

You do not seem to understand much about the pre-Roman era lives of Kelts, Germans, Slavs or Balts. They had stable societies for many centuries; Anglo-norman England consolidated a lot more power into the monarchy because of the long series of wars and occupation by the Danes, not because it was somehow inevitable; his attitude that he didn't need to listen to the nobility, or respect their rights, was because he was his father's youngest and most spoiled brat; his failure cost the Angevin family every bit of their holdings in France (in his Father's day, 2/3 of the entire thing) except the area of Dunkirk/Calais. He got even less support and respect from the French noble vassals than he did from the English.

To be short, the customs you think are easily overset are the collective memory of entire tribes; and the notion of "kingship" changed rather drastically over what its authority actually was over the early middle ages. In the fifth century, a german König was the leader of a warband, with political authority left to elders; a king didn't inherit his father's holdings, he was considered for the position of war leader based on a blood connection to the ruling family (divine descent from Odin, usually) but it was a choice made by the FAMILY, and they could (and did) pick from anyone in the line of descent; and their bards and skalds and priests were always there to remind them of the laws.

Which was why the Romans killed the Druids, and destroyed all the pagan libraries--so no one could argue with their interpretations of "law."

And, at the time of "King John" ecclesiastic courts could and did overrule secular courts whenvever they wanted to. And since at the time almost no one but priests were literate at all, and only the priests were writing histories or annals, there is just a bit of bias in the way they presented things.

Corruption of the courts, and corruption and overreaching by the nobles led to the peasant riots you will find, and are part of the rational that led to revolutions that altered politics in the West.

They didn't alter anything in the East, even after the Russian revolution.

Which, you seem to accept (along with the myth of democracy) entirely.


Democracy was established one step at a time. In this case the franchise was slowly expanded and expanded again and again... step after step until today's true democracy was established. It's not not the only path to democracy but it's not an unusual one. Many countries which are democracies today followed a similar path.


You seem to have a halo around the term democracy; read some history. I agree entirely with Munroburton's comment on that paragraph.

I don't mind a discussion of the topic--but you ought to read something besides a freshman primer of "Western Civ" to get a better feel for the time element involved, and how the winners write histories to glorify their having won.

Rob
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Re: The Magna Carta
Post by biochem   » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:29 am

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I wouldn't call what we have today a true democracy, nor even a truly representative democracy. Just as many changes have occurred, there will be many more to come. The problem is always entrenched interests resistant to change, because the status quo benefits them and the most popularly-desired adjustments threatens that.


Somewhat true. It is however vastly improved over the original. The rate of change is slow and appears to take multiple generations. So further improvement will take a while....a looong while.
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Re: The Magna Carta
Post by munroburton   » Sat Aug 08, 2015 5:10 am

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biochem wrote:
I wouldn't call what we have today a true democracy, nor even a truly representative democracy. Just as many changes have occurred, there will be many more to come. The problem is always entrenched interests resistant to change, because the status quo benefits them and the most popularly-desired adjustments threatens that.


Somewhat true. It is however vastly improved over the original. The rate of change is slow and appears to take multiple generations. So further improvement will take a while....a looong while.


Just wait until the young'uns currently growing up with smartphones, tablets and such all their lives fill the legislatures, replacing the television-era politicians, as well as the bulk of the voters. We're about 40, maybe 35 years from that tipping point. About 15 or 20 before the internet generation gets to that point.

To these future electorates, used to instant technological communication from the minute they are born, 18th, 19th, 20th and early 21st century political systems are going to seem incredibly crude, archaic and bogged down by nonsense.

Because the limits of our various systems is not the franchise(although there's still some issues there) but the systems themself. We've all probably voted at some point for candidates or parties who didn't win, or did win but went on to break election pledges they made to secure those wins.
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Re: The Magna Carta
Post by Daryl   » Sat Aug 08, 2015 6:35 am

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The good points of the internet generation coming into power are that they will demand freedom of information, be less likely to accept that the status quo is optimal, and less beholden to vested interests.
The main bad point is that they tend to be superficial and not to fully consider all aspects (law of unintended consequences), and the second is that they have a tendency to follow trends and memes of the moment.
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Re: The Magna Carta
Post by biochem   » Sat Aug 08, 2015 4:39 pm

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Daryl wrote:The main bad point is that they tend to be superficial and not to fully consider all aspects (law of unintended consequences), and the second is that they have a tendency to follow trends and memes of the moment.


That tends to be true of most younger generations. Hopefully by the time they are in power they will have matured, just as the generations before them.
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Re: The Magna Carta
Post by Tenshinai   » Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:39 pm

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DDHvi wrote:
Eight hundred years ago, Magna Carta was signed in England. It limited the power of the king for the first time. It is from Magna Carta, and not from some French atheist of the eighteenth century, that we derive our idea of legally binding the government to respect human rights.


At present, the trend is to unlimit the power of government, through rules, regulations, and bad judgements.

In this context, it is worth re-reading George Orwell's story, "1984." Fiction does not connect with reality, but it can resonate with it. Orwell's story section where words are made to mean whatever the big shots want them to mean is a strong resonance :!:

...



Meh, the "viking nations" had stricter rules on rulers long before that. Earliest known writing that survive is from 1250s, but it is known to have existed at least before 1120 as Saxo Grammaticus indirectly references it´s existence, probably much earlier still.

So no, Magna Carta wasn´t first with that, and may in fact have been more or less borrowing from one of the provincial laws of the Scandinavian nations that already existed.

And the laws in Scandinavia were also far more "general", not just dealing with the "nobs".
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