Can Clyntahn be removed for undermining the jihad?- LaMA

Hi all,

I think someone suggested this before, but we have lots of newcomers, so lets get lots of input.

Ahlverez thought the ICA only had 200,000 men when he's wondering what DE is up last November [LaMA; November, chapter 4] with large garrisons in Tarot, Zebediah, and Corisande, so that sending 45,000 men was the maximum remainder he thought they could send to effectively rescue DE, by threatening the AoS's supply line.

Magwair back in September [chapter 4] now had proof that Clyntahn had lied to them, but no further details were provided.

Generally this has been thought to refer to his semi-secret messages to Kaitswyrth, but suppose they were copies of what the various army CO's had been briefed regarding the enemy, all provided by the inquisition at ZC's direct order, which was far less than what the Go4 knows the ICA to be?

He may argue he did it to encourage the soldiers of god to smite the heretics etc, but proof that he'd lied and thus had helped defeat god's armies, and was now subject to the 'punishment' might rattle him enough into ordering Rhobair's execution.

Since Rhobair might easily be the most popular vicar in Zion, thanks to major Phandys that attempt could easily backfire, causing the common people of Zion to rise up against Clyntahn and the grossly outnumbered inquisitors.

When this might happen would be very interesting, does Allyn hold this back or let Rhobair know, so he can prove it independently?

How's that for a RFC delivered curve ball?

What is Rayno's fallback position?

Does he join the rest of the Go3 in arresting the grand inquisitor?

The assumptions that argued he could never rise any higher have drastically changed in light of the recent turmoil, so the Go3 might easily be very willing to support him replacing his ex-boss if he can do it.

Ah, interesting times...

L

lyonheart wrote:Hi all,

I think someone suggested this before, but we have lots of newcomers, so lets get lots of input.

Ahlverez thought the ICA only had 200,000 men when he's wondering what DE is up last November [LaMA; November, chapter 4] with large garrisons in Tarot, Zebediah, and Corisande, so that sending 45,000 men was the maximum remainder he thought they could send to effectively rescue DE, by threatening the AoS's supply line.

Magwair back in September [chapter 4] now had proof that Clyntahn had lied to them, but no further details were provided.

Generally this has been thought to refer to his semi-secret messages to Kaitswyrth, but suppose they were copies of what the various army CO's had been briefed regarding the enemy, all provided by the inquisition at ZC's direct order, which was far less than what the Go4 knows the ICA to be?

He may argue he did it to encourage the soldiers of god to smite the heretics etc, but proof that he'd lied and thus had helped defeat god's armies, and was now subject to the 'punishment' might rattle him enough into ordering Rhobair's execution.

I don't think he rattles all that well, not from suggestions he did wrong anyway. He could argue that, to a certain extent, helping commanders underestimate total forces against them can stiffen their backs, hearten them to Langhorne's work. Obviously, that can go too far, but it's not obvious that Clyntahn did go too far that way.

That someone dares suggest he be put to the Question would have him haul that someone off for it right away. Or maybe kill them with his bare hands. They are big and heavy hands.... And if he did order Rhobair's or Magwair's execution, I'm not confident he couldn't manage it.

Since Rhobair might easily be the most popular vicar in Zion, thanks to major Phandys that attempt could easily backfire, causing the common people of Zion to rise up against Clyntahn and the grossly outnumbered inquisitors.

That's quite a stretch. They aren't restive people. By the time they'd be ready to react, their own fear would have put them back in their seats and the Inquisitors - drafting all the Temple Guard they have to, after putting the fear of Zhaspyr into them first - would be sure to reinforce that popular fear as strongly as necessary.

When this might happen would be very interesting, does Allyn hold this back or let Rhobair know, so he can prove it independently?

How's that for a RFC delivered curve ball?

I can't rule it out, but it also looks, dramatically, like the entire war turns out to be almost a sideshow - something that makes a difference at all only as a kind of side effect. That doesn't sound like it would read well.

What is Rayno's fallback position?

A nice estate deep in the Barren Lands? "I hear Armageddon Reef is nice this time of year."

Does he join the rest of the Go3 in arresting the grand inquisitor?

The assumptions that argued he could never rise any higher have drastically changed in light of the recent turmoil, so the Go3 might easily be very willing to support him replacing his ex-boss if he can do it.

Ah, interesting times...

L

Every one of the Go3 is going to count Rayno as a poisonous toad. If they could, they would break the Inquisition now, and with Clyntahn gone, they would. With no Inquisition, with all the blackmail files something they can invite him to publish - oh, let us be rid of that lot of vicars! - Rayno would have no power base and no friends. If he's very lucky, in return for not making any inconvenient trouble, maybe he would be permitted to retire to a monastery deep in the Mountains of Light. And freeze.

JeffEngel wrote:I can't rule it out, but it also looks, dramatically, like the entire war turns out to be almost a sideshow - something that makes a difference at all only as a kind of side effect. That doesn't sound like it would read well.

From the point of view of the Vicarate in Zion, it *is* a sideshow. Given the pace of events in the story and the fact that we likely only have 1-2 more books before the current situation gets resolved and we jump 20 years, I can't see any direct military way that Clinton gets removed by Our Heroes... the battlefield is still too vast and there are too many pieces between the Charisian armies and the Temple. They don't have to push all the way to Zion to remove Clinton, though. They just have to keep the pressure up long enough for the economics to bring him down. His power will erode with the treasury... history shows that terror only works as long as you can afford it.

I'd love to see Rhobair show up to one of the meetings with a dagger, or perhaps a new model revolver. I don't recall there ever being temple guards present in the Go4 meetings. That might wind up being too close to the end of AoV, though, so probably not.

I don't think we get rid of Clyntahn as a consequence of official charges. Semi-seriously it's going to take bribing his cook to lace a dish with arsnic... Or more seriously, Duchairn's plot succeeds because Nynian's man Major Phandys manages to subvert Clyntahn's personal bodyguard into staging an assasination.

OR...

My favorite bit of whimsy... The ICA invades Zion from the sea and surrounds the Temple. Durchairn steps out of the front door of the Temple with Clyntahn's head on a platter and gives it to the ICA commander as a peace offering.

Don

NervousEnergy wrote:I'd love to see Rhobair show up to one of the meetings with a dagger, or perhaps a new model revolver. I don't recall there ever being temple guards present in the Go4 meetings. That might wind up being too close to the end of AoV, though, so probably not.

Yes, I've often wondered just what the internal security situation is at those meetings of the Go4. Surely the Vicars don't get searched on entering, but they don't sound like the kind of discussions you have in front of guards either. RFC just has never detailed those things. I have sometimes thought that Clyntahn might one day slip and fall onto his steak knife.

Randomiser wrote:

NervousEnergy wrote:I'd love to see Rhobair show up to one of the meetings with a dagger, or perhaps a new model revolver. I don't recall there ever being temple guards present in the Go4 meetings. That might wind up being too close to the end of AoV, though, so probably not.

Yes, I've often wondered just what the internal security situation is at those meetings of the Go4. Surely the Vicars don't get searched on entering, but they don't sound like the kind of discussions you have in front of guards either. RFC just has never detailed those things. I have sometimes thought that Clyntahn might one day slip and fall onto his steak knife.

We are a bloody minded bunch, aren't we?

Don

Randomiser wrote:

NervousEnergy wrote:I'd love to see Rhobair show up to one of the meetings with a dagger, or perhaps a new model revolver. I don't recall there ever being temple guards present in the Go4 meetings. That might wind up being too close to the end of AoV, though, so probably not.

Yes, I've often wondered just what the internal security situation is at those meetings of the Go4. Surely the Vicars don't get searched on entering, but they don't sound like the kind of discussions you have in front of guards either. RFC just has never detailed those things. I have sometimes thought that Clyntahn might one day slip and fall onto his steak knife.

Rayno, Clyntahn really DID fall on his own steak knife... 47 times ...

Hi Randomiser,

From the context of their meetings, there are no witnesses; so all their personal guards, from one or two to whatever Phandys has, who've mainly known each other for a couple decades, probably are passing the beer and pretzels, along with whatever dinner leftovers, while they play cards etc during the long wait.

It would be classic though if Clyntahn kicked something that toppled over on him, or hurt himself so much he hobbled then fell over and then something huge fell on top of him; if it didn't kill him it crushes his ankle or foot or leg and hand etc, then gangrene and diabetes kick in so he gradually has one amputation after another, suffering furiously yet seeing his personal power dribbling inevitably away...

Anyone have a better painful end for him?

L

Randomiser wrote:

NervousEnergy wrote:I'd love to see Rhobair show up to one of the meetings with a dagger, or perhaps a new model revolver. I don't recall there ever being temple guards present in the Go4 meetings. That might wind up being too close to the end of AoV, though, so probably not.

Yes, I've often wondered just what the internal security situation is at those meetings of the Go4. Surely the Vicars don't get searched on entering, but they don't sound like the kind of discussions you have in front of guards either. RFC just has never detailed those things. I have sometimes thought that Clyntahn might one day slip and fall onto his steak knife.

Hi Isilith,

A great image, but you need a 'Orient Express' touch there are 44 other vicars and servants there too.

L

Isilith wrote:

Randomiser wrote:
Yes, I've often wondered just what the internal security situation is at those meetings of the Go4. Surely the Vicars don't get searched on entering, but they don't sound like the kind of discussions you have in front of guards either. RFC just has never detailed those things. I have sometimes thought that Clyntahn might one day slip and fall onto his steak knife.

Rayno, Clyntahn really DID fall on his own steak knife... 47 times ...

Just who do you think is going to "remove" him? The Inquistion? The Temple Guard? They all *answer* to him, even if not directly. And they are the folks who would have to arrest him.

Perhaps the Grand Vicar could order such a thing, but I doubt it would actually be carried out. Even so, Traynir would have to have him order it, and I doubt he has the spine to do so.

There really doesn't seem to be an "impeachment" mechanism in the Church's hierarchy. As long as you don't p*ss off the Inquisition, you can pretty much do whatever you want, and there's little anyone can (or will) do about it.