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The Manpower Files

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Re: The Manpower Files - an exhaustive search for the MAlign
Post by cthia   » Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:31 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:For operational security, Manpower probably routinely used cover desitinations for ships Mesa and it's assorted major logistic points in the shipment of genetic slaves. You leave Mesa and go to any one of several places -per the record - but beyond jusing the Visigoth Wormhole to get in that direction, none of the records would be correct.

[there becomes a HUGE challange of payments/allocation of expences for the crews and ships involved because you need some level of accuracy in paying people and subcontractors but it is possible if you work at it]

The actual ship logs would be interesting along with the maintenance records and expenses/receipts for work done/supplies purchased. Same with the transfer of funds for payment of slaves and other things delivered. Again, you can set up multiple sets of records and pray that none of the originals become compromised. Having a slaver captured and not able to obliterate it's actual logs and records is a major concern.

Houdini moves the balance of the people the Alignment considers necessary off to at least Darius. You have to guess that the majority of the Alignment production needs have long since been duplicated or outright moved to Darius and other locations which are now fully staffed.

You don't use Streak Drives between non-Alignment locations where it can be tracked. At worst, you doctor your records to change the departure time and place before you go somewhere. All of that running around in Talbot and related areas does NOT mean giving you actual point of origin (for the inbound) trip to local authorities. When you leave a system- if you tell them where you are going- you head out in the "normal" flight path out of system for the normal route to X but then change once you go to hyper.
While not impossible, tracking back the course of any given ship is going to be a nightmare. Even if they don't have several lies in the officlal logs (and hence local records) you have to either send questions or people back along the track and are probably going to run into some reluctance of local authorities to provide that type of information. Presuming that what they give you- which they got from the ships themselves- was not originaly false.

Recall that the Alignment has at its disposal a lot of people and experience in essentialy smuggleing slaves from point of production to points of sale and thorugh any manner of laberenth of midpoints. Look at what the Houdini plan was doing to get people off Mesa as far as shipping them out to lose them in changes of ships, variations of where they actually went etc.

The gross volumes of records for Manpower and subsidiary/related companies may indicate that there was a lot more production and business going on than can be accounted for in final sales and expences but finding what was actual done is harder. The slaves are not typically going to be trackable to final destination and the payments are going to be laundered.

Besides, even if surviving member of Manpower and related companies knew about various high-security or off the books operations withing those companies, the actual records should be so much plasma and shattered quipment now with few- if any- of the employees alive to be questioned.

Perhaps if Manticore's ONI, with the help of others, gathered years of records of ships emission signatures (combined with the more mundane info such as name/registry/travel history and filed destinations and crew (with positive ID) you MIGHT be able to track down various ships used as slavers or participated in operations (such as Abrasanover-spelling) in the Talbot area plans and get some idea of where they had been as points in time. Putting that together into something usable is more challanging than gathering the info. Seeing a warship in Talbot catching the same emissions off "different" freighters when they are dealing with a very limited number of places and happening to be patroling in the same circuit as their target when they area already concerned with who is showing upis not the same as demanding records from hundreds of star systems and wormhole termini astro control stations then looking for a pattern in emissions and ship traffic.

At this point all the information the Alignment needed to move to Darius is probably there. The remaining/surviving records on Mesa are going to be a gigantic mass of data with mostly holes or gaps where things have been destroyed or just erased (very carefully eraced and covered over) so as wipe the trail as if it had never been.

I would suspect that ALL of the Oyster Bay ships and weapons were built at Darius. The Alignment would want to have all of it's shipyards plus component manufacture at the Darius system. Even if they were buying parts (normal parts) from places like Mannheim though shell companies and appeared to be little more than people buying spaires or components for ships and stations, they would need to have the bulk of their production FOR EVERYTHING at Darius. Sure, they could have been ordering normal ships from SL locations to build up capacity in things like regular transport but they have to have all the capacity to build, modify, repair and advance the designers at Darius. They might even have a fleet base at one of the systems in the shadow wormhole net rather than at Darius to keep people away from the I-don't-know-I'm-a-slave population of Darius.

I also suspect that by this time, the termini on the shadow side of the wormhole network leading to Darius are getting at least forts along with BC and above sized ships defences and minefield.

Quite an interesting post Brigade XO.

I am interested in the planet Mesa's economic system. I cannot let loose that thread. Which also leads me back to something in which I've always been curious.

Considering how present day business works with all of the various entities that must receive fiscal year earnings reports, it seems that many financial records for decades upon decades are floating around that were not slagged by the MAlign. These fiscal year end reports allow checks and balances both to a business's smooth, profitable and legal operation and as a safety net to catch unsavory employees. It also assists government agencies, partners and other organizations in the same.

Surely Mesan businesses does not operate in a vacuum. Consider this...
Manpower should still be a rather powerful entity, with 30 % holdings in Cybercom Inc., a Mesan technology company and Noroguchi Nanotech.

Who holds the other 70 % of Cybercom Inc.? Are there any shares owned by offworld companies or subsidiaries? Does Manpower have any companies in any other systems or own shares thereof? And this brings me to something I've always wondered about in the Honorverse business world. What organization/entity becomes the default checks and balances for businesses. Who catches embezzling schemes? Who audits? Surely there are banking disputes, profit disputes, etc. The IRS does it here on Earth in tandem with other countries' agencies. Is their a Galactic IRS (G-IRS) in the Honorverse? There has to be financial records of Manpower businesses in some entity's hands that couldn't be slagged. In fact, I'm surprised that Manpower hasn't been audited by this entity and the G-IRS, insurance agencies and personal detectives are out looking for the MAlign as well.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Manpower Files - an exhaustive search for the MAlign
Post by cthia   » Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:41 pm

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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:How are they traveling? Can they risk geing spotted taking their sports car out for routine travel at risk of being spotted and scanned emissions recorded? Yet if they are traveling commercially, how?



Due to the distances and times, there really would be no correspondence between stars about the travel and departure times of ships - if a ship does not show back at it's home within it's schedule or disappears with an expected cargo, there may be a follow up, but other than that it really does not make sense, because any communication would be record, not a notification.

The only thing a Streak boat has to worry about is a round trip between 2 stars. Returning to Beowulf from Visigoth 3 days faster than possible is hard to explain. The solution is to use longer circuliar trips with multiple ships, so the Beowulf-Visigoth ship continues on to Katarina, while a second ship returns to Beowulf. The message loop is still almost as fast as if the original ship returned, but no one but the people it is communicating with would be the wiser.

JohnRoth wrote:That's only true if you're looking at records from one location. Correlate the records on both ends and a streak drive ship will stand out. It's highly likely that ONI will be doing exactly that for places they've got records. And the impending takeover of both the Visigoth and Mesa wormhole termini will give them a lot of records to correlate.


Exactly John. And I suspect that this is exactly what ONI is doing right now that they've gotten a wind of it. And certainly since Lacoon, which probably creates a ton of paperwork and data in and of itself. Which is why I questioned how the MAlign are traveling now.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Manpower Files - an exhaustive search for the MAlign
Post by Valen123456   » Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:31 pm

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cthia wrote:Who holds the other 70 % of Cybercom Inc.? Are there any shares owned by offworld companies or subsidiaries? Does Manpower have any companies in any other systems or own shares thereof? And this brings me to something I've always wondered about in the Honorverse business world. What organization/entity becomes the default checks and balances for businesses. Who catches embezzling schemes? Who audits? Surely there are banking disputes, profit disputes, etc. The IRS does it here on Earth in tandem with other countries' agencies. Is their a Galactic IRS (G-IRS) in the Honorverse? There has to be financial records of Manpower businesses in some entity's hands that couldn't be slagged. In fact, I'm surprised that Manpower hasn't been audited by this entity and the G-IRS, insurance agencies and personal detectives are out looking for the MAlign as well.


I have next to zero experience in financial matters and the associated theories that drive that sector ... however Manpower has been described as a "rouge transteller" on several occasions, along with many other Mesa based corporations or people they do business with. It is likely that this term is applied because it is "not" audited or at least not to the same degree or standards as many others. The Solarian League was likely the original auditing body (or some component within it at least) ... and we all know how the League has turned out, even with transtellers that are legal and upstanding entities. I have yet to hear of one real Solarian based transteller that was actually completely legal and above board given the rampant, ingrained, and necessary corruption in the Frontiers and Core Worlds.

Given that it is implied that a lot of that corruption as been either orchestrated or helped along by the Alignment and its plants, I imagine that a lot of Mesa's erstwhile "auditors" are on the take, been misinformed, or simply do not pay attention. Mesa as a whole (and through it, the Alignment) hold a lot of power in the League both legally and covertly, and i imagine most of it was to enable their actives, hide their actions, and manipulate others both for Mesa benefit and the Alignments schemes.
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Re: The Manpower Files - an exhaustive search for the MAlign
Post by Dauntless   » Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:23 pm

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agreed. the league prior to the 1st havenite war was viewed as the closet thing to an impartial third party for most nations for anything that was outside of their space. even though it was well known that impartial was a joke.

they were the ones likely to be called in and given what else the MAlign has been doing buying off or killing non corrupt super tax agents would have been easy.
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Re: The Manpower Files - an exhaustive search for the MAlign
Post by SWM   » Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:03 pm

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Darius was discovered over two hundred years ago. That is a long time to build up infrastructure. Many generations of star lines and slaves have grown up there. It is likely that Darius has been self-sufficient for a hundred years, hundred and fifty years maybe. That's a long time to hid the evidence of the initial settlement. The only ships that have been going there in a long time are Alignment couriers and ships transporting the very few officials who need to visit. There is not that much traffic to hide, and most of it is coming from Mesa itself, where there are plenty of people to make sure the paperwork never even gets into the system to begin with.

And ships don't always have to provide their destinations and planned course.
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Re: The Manpower Files - an exhaustive search for the MAlign
Post by Fox2!   » Tue Aug 04, 2015 10:16 pm

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SWM wrote: And ships don't always have to provide their destinations and planned course.


Even if you did file a course and destination, as soon as you jump into hyper no one will see you turn left instead of right. Documentation from just one end might not be of much use in tracing down the way to Darius.
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Re: The Manpower Files - an exhaustive search for the MAlign
Post by BobG   » Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:30 pm

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kenl511 wrote:Has the MAlign closed all the backdoors into the Mesan Government Systems? Well enough to convince experienced counter hackers they have no evidentiary value? The counter hackers I knew were usually able to geographically locate a hacker using "node and routing markers" which are harder to remove than most people seem to think.

Anton or Michelle's computer experts could probably do it easily.

I think that if Anton & company can estimate when the evacuation started, they can gather all the records they can find on Mesa, and look for changes in patterns between before Houdini and after it's start. The payments for shipping and transport will no doubt appear to originate in many different places, but it is likely that even a small uptick in shipping, or maybe a way to correlate the identities of the Mesan security escorts, will lead to a larger pattern.

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Re: The Manpower Files - an exhaustive search for the MAlign
Post by cthia   » Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:21 am

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George J. Smith wrote:
cthia wrote:snip...
The Mesan Alignment. Is the Darius System completely self surficient?

snip...

I think the only people who know about the Darius system are all part of the MAlign or resident on Darius, ONI and others can only speculate that the MAlign has a base somewhere where the weapons used in Oyster Bay were manufactured.

ONI will be concentrating on how much information they may be able to get from Mesa to further their knowledge of where the MAlign base may be.

SWM wrote:Cthia is writing as "ONI", but he really means us, the readers of this forum, and he wants to include information we know but the main characters do not. I'm not sure why Cthia chose to write as "ONI" but it is pretty clearly not intended to limit the data we can use. Cthia apparently wants to gather all the information available from the text and infodumps.

Absolutely SWM. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I'll add that I was also trying to make it seem as authentic as I possibly could -- to make it interesting. A bit of role playing. And to be honest, the power was going to my head. It's intoxicating. Power really does corrupt. lol

And I also might add that this is exciting stuff. I've never been one into murder mysteries, and the MAlign are one big super Agatha Christie bowl of fruit loops. My sister is addicted to them but I just could never get on board. She hates sci-fi and I had yet to acquire a taste for whodunits, (My niece refers to them so, catchy.) But with this MANPOWER FILES, I've caught the bug. Sleuthing is exciting! Powerful! Sherlock Holmes, Matlock, Elementary, Cagney and Lacey -- they were all addicts -- addicted to the power of the sleuth! My sister'll never let me live it down. I might even buy a magnifying glass. lol

****** *

Question. The little data that Herlander was able to supply, in what form was it? All from memory or a smuggled chip? I can imagine data chips to be insanely small in the Honorverse. Thumb drives are smaller than thumb nail size now.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Manpower Files - an exhaustive search for the MAlign
Post by kzt   » Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:35 am

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BobG wrote:I think that if Anton & company can estimate when the evacuation started, they can gather all the records they can find on Mesa, and look for changes in patterns between before Houdini and after it's start. The payments for shipping and transport will no doubt appear to originate in many different places, but it is likely that even a small uptick in shipping, or maybe a way to correlate the identities of the Mesan security escorts, will lead to a larger pattern.

Remember the data destruction that was unleashed right after the Green Pines explosion? That was a partial trigger of the MA's embedded programs. There won't BE any useful records. These guys have been planning this for a long time, and getting Mesa stomped has ALWAYS been part of the plan.
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Re: The Manpower Files - an exhaustive search for the MAlign
Post by SWM   » Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:03 am

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cthia wrote:Question. The little data that Herlander was able to supply, in what form was it? All from memory or a smuggled chip? I can imagine data chips to be insanely small in the Honorverse. Thumb drives are smaller than thumb nail size now.

As I recall, Herlander himself had only his own skills and memory to supply. But while that was important, Herlander did not know all that much about the Alignment. His main contribution was technical knowledge and general information about how the Alignment works from the view of someone halfway inside the Onion.

The most important information came from McBryde, and was contained (as I recall) on a single data chip. It was intended to be just a teaser to convince Zilwicki and Cachat that he had good intel, but he never had time to give them anything further. But even so, that single data chip contained more information on the Alignment than anyone outside had ever seen in all the centuries that the organization has existed.
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