Eleven Weeks To Go, what are you looking for?

lyonheart wrote:Hi Isilith,

Neither Jeff nor I accused you of saying the alliance wanted or intended to conquer or enslave Silkiah, indeed the term I've always preferred is 'liberate' [in the process of taking the canal ], though some other posters didn't like it; but annexing it etc is quite unnecessary, and as Puerto Rico has demonstrated, colonies can be a pain.

Well, for my part, I have read Isilith as being a lot more assertive about putting Silkiah in the EoC without much regard for what Silkiahans want, and that seems to have been a stronger impression than he wanted to convey.

More to the point, Charis is already providing all those benefits you cited to Siddamark, courtesy of a treaty, which doesn't require incorporation into the EoC.

NTM, this has been a subject of several threads over the years, many of them started by me.

Given that we know very little about Silkiah and absolutely nothing about the Grand Duke of Silkiah [aside from his existence], except that he's quietly supported the smuggling despite Clyntahn's threats, that probably included assassination if it had been possible; which says to me that the GDS may be a fairly popular guy, and might easily remain the GDS or even be elected the equivalent of 'Lord Protector', were Silkiah to lean towards the republic which it very well might, since it was the republic's pressure on Desnar that created the Grand Duchy in the first place, but I don't see the allies even suggesting that Silkiah change its form of government, because offering simple true independence, is more than a big enough prize for most Silkians I expect to prefer the alliance over the temple and Desnar.

The Wiki at least refers to Siddarmark's expansion into the Grand Duchy and Desnair, halted by the Treaty of Silk Town. That suggests that the Grand Duchy wasn't created then, but rather was a pre-existing state likely to fall to Siddarmark. (It doesn't, notably, indicate whether or not it was inclined to join Siddarmark peacefully; inclined by some Silkiahans to do so; or threatened with outright conquest.) Silkiahan accents sounding Desnairian suggests that the Grand Duchy may have been a breakaway portion of Desnair, perhaps conducting a negotiation with Siddarmark for alliance, protectorate status, or annexation over time, halted by the Church lest Desnair get overwhelmed or cut off from Haven or Siddarmark get too powerful.

Chances are though that Silkiah had to have been Desnairian at some point, even apart from the accent, just because Siddarmark has no Desnairian border and would have to go through Silkiah or Dohlar or water to get to Desnair, or vice versa. That may be the best support for taking the Wiki references (at least) as poor phrasing and Silkiah for having been established with the Treaty of Silk Town. That was only one generation ago though, so it's unclear what sort of national identity Silkiahans have - apart from being irritated at being confused with Desnairians.

Despite the fact that we see the war shifting to the alliance, not everyone does, and I suspect many if not most Silkians wouldn't want to get any closer to Charis or the republic than they have to right now.

If Silkiah did join Charis, how soon before Clyntahn triggered another SoS inside Silkiah and created a civil war and worse?

Even if he couldn't, primarily due to time constraints, how many Silkiahans would believe he would as soon as he could, and thus oppose any such union as you propose?

IIRC, the forum consensus was that the Silkians would prefer to become truly independent for the first time, rather than subject themselves again to more foreigners, NTM even further distant, however benign.

Normal trade and diplomatic ties as Jeff pointed out may be more important now in the near term as demonstrating the alliance isn't going to conquer and expropriate everyone and everything.

Getting closer than they have to to Charis, or Siddarmark, does carry those risks. But how much choice will they have? However much Charis may be happy to give them, Clyntahn figures anyone who isn't a frothing heretic-killer is a heretic. Them or us. You can't even submit to occupation without being written off as a heretic. So Silkiah can have a constant guerrilla war against an occupation by its real friends that its real friends cannot afford, that would destroy the nation entirely - or stand up, accept this as a liberation, and assert itself as an ally of Siddarmark and Charis. (Or, if it had any reason to, an annex-ee of one or the other.) It's not buying relief from risk of retribution without paying for it with its own national existence, much as it may like to have that kind of option. The Sword of Schueler made that all too clear already.

Then step back and look at it from Charis's position; preserving her vast ocean moats, rather than getting entangled in any continental state [wisdom is avoiding a land war in Asia-"Princess Bride"] that could potentially turn into a quagmire that is to be avoided like the plague.

Read Sharleyan's wisdom in BHD again, as well as remembering "England has no permanent friends, but she has permanent interests" etc as guides to the EoC's foreign policy keys.

L

Of course, on Charis' side, that's an option that no longer exists either. Alliance with Siddarmark gets it in that war now, because it needs those mainland allies. It had two mainland friends, but Silkiah fell under the shadow of the Sword of Schueler and Siddarmark got sliced in half from it. It's working to restore Siddarmark and it's surely going to do it for Silkiah, but it's going to have those continental wars for as long as the Temple is capable of turning the whole mainland against it.

Still, in the longer term, it's an argument against annexation over alliance. You've got no flexibility with annexation. An alliance with Silkiah, in which you help Silkiah get to stand up for its own interests, means you can back off or reposition as need be - and flexible diplomacy is a hallmark of an island empire.

That wouldn't apply to Siddarmark though, and for all I know of Silkiah's history, maybe they were angling for a closer relationship of some sort there before the Church meddled.

JeffEngel wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi Isilith,

Neither Jeff nor I accused you of saying the alliance wanted or intended to conquer or enslave Silkiah, indeed the term I've always preferred is 'liberate' [in the process of taking the canal ], though some other posters didn't like it; but annexing it etc is quite unnecessary, and as Puerto Rico has demonstrated, colonies can be a pain.

Well, for my part, I have read Isilith as being a lot more assertive about putting Silkiah in the EoC without much regard for what Silkiahans want, and that seems to have been a stronger impression than he wanted to convey.

More to the point, Charis is already providing all those benefits you cited to Siddamark, courtesy of a treaty, which doesn't require incorporation into the EoC.

NTM, this has been a subject of several threads over the years, many of them started by me.

Given that we know very little about Silkiah and absolutely nothing about the Grand Duke of Silkiah [aside from his existence], except that he's quietly supported the smuggling despite Clyntahn's threats, that probably included assassination if it had been possible; which says to me that the GDS may be a fairly popular guy, and might easily remain the GDS or even be elected the equivalent of 'Lord Protector', were Silkiah to lean towards the republic which it very well might, since it was the republic's pressure on Desnar that created the Grand Duchy in the first place, but I don't see the allies even suggesting that Silkiah change its form of government, because offering simple true independence, is more than a big enough prize for most Silkians I expect to prefer the alliance over the temple and Desnar.

The Wiki at least refers to Siddarmark's expansion into the Grand Duchy and Desnair, halted by the Treaty of Silk Town. That suggests that the Grand Duchy wasn't created then, but rather was a pre-existing state likely to fall to Siddarmark. (It doesn't, notably, indicate whether or not it was inclined to join Siddarmark peacefully; inclined by some Silkiahans to do so; or threatened with outright conquest.) Silkiahan accents sounding Desnairian suggests that the Grand Duchy may have been a breakaway portion of Desnair, perhaps conducting a negotiation with Siddarmark for alliance, protectorate status, or annexation over time, halted by the Church lest Desnair get overwhelmed or cut off from Haven or Siddarmark get too powerful.

Chances are though that Silkiah had to have been Desnairian at some point, even apart from the accent, just because Siddarmark has no Desnairian border and would have to go through Silkiah or Dohlar or water to get to Desnair, or vice versa. That may be the best support for taking the Wiki references (at least) as poor phrasing and Silkiah for having been established with the Treaty of Silk Town. That was only one generation ago though, so it's unclear what sort of national identity Silkiahans have - apart from being irritated at being confused with Desnairians.

Despite the fact that we see the war shifting to the alliance, not everyone does, and I suspect many if not most Silkians wouldn't want to get any closer to Charis or the republic than they have to right now.

If Silkiah did join Charis, how soon before Clyntahn triggered another SoS inside Silkiah and created a civil war and worse?

Even if he couldn't, primarily due to time constraints, how many Silkiahans would believe he would as soon as he could, and thus oppose any such union as you propose?

IIRC, the forum consensus was that the Silkians would prefer to become truly independent for the first time, rather than subject themselves again to more foreigners, NTM even further distant, however benign.

Normal trade and diplomatic ties as Jeff pointed out may be more important now in the near term as demonstrating the alliance isn't going to conquer and expropriate everyone and everything.

Getting closer than they have to to Charis, or Siddarmark, does carry those risks. But how much choice will they have? However much Charis may be happy to give them, Clyntahn figures anyone who isn't a frothing heretic-killer is a heretic. Them or us. You can't even submit to occupation without being written off as a heretic. So Silkiah can have a constant guerrilla war against an occupation by its real friends that its real friends cannot afford, that would destroy the nation entirely - or stand up, accept this as a liberation, and assert itself as an ally of Siddarmark and Charis. (Or, if it had any reason to, an annex-ee of one or the other.) It's not buying relief from risk of retribution without paying for it with its own national existence, much as it may like to have that kind of option. The Sword of Schueler made that all too clear already.

Then step back and look at it from Charis's position; preserving her vast ocean moats, rather than getting entangled in any continental state [wisdom is avoiding a land war in Asia-"Princess Bride"] that could potentially turn into a quagmire that is to be avoided like the plague.

Read Sharleyan's wisdom in BHD again, as well as remembering "England has no permanent friends, but she has permanent interests" etc as guides to the EoC's foreign policy keys.

L

Of course, on Charis' side, that's an option that no longer exists either. Alliance with Siddarmark gets it in that war now, because it needs those mainland allies. It had two mainland friends, but Silkiah fell under the shadow of the Sword of Schueler and Siddarmark got sliced in half from it. It's working to restore Siddarmark and it's surely going to do it for Silkiah, but it's going to have those continental wars for as long as the Temple is capable of turning the whole mainland against it.

Still, in the longer term, it's an argument against annexation over alliance. You've got no flexibility with annexation. An alliance with Silkiah, in which you help Silkiah get to stand up for its own interests, means you can back off or reposition as need be - and flexible diplomacy is a hallmark of an island empire.

That wouldn't apply to Siddarmark though, and for all I know of Silkiah's history, maybe they were angling for a closer relationship of some sort there before the Church meddled.

A nice post JeffEngel...I had been thinking that becoming part of the Republic might be in Silkiah's best interests. But I think you've changed my mind...

Perhaps eventually....when it is timely to so so... a joint guarantee of Silkiah's independence by both Siddarmark and the EOC.

Don

Hi JeffEngel,

Kudos on the excellent post as always!

I think the description of Silkiah's nominal neutral creation out of former Desnar territory very early in AMF [in Merlin's conversation with BGV], NTM the other textev that Desnar was rather larger than the republic in east Haven for a couple of centuries including a number of provinces referenced in OAR etc, though increasingly past tense, and how Desnar used to be across the Tarot Channel from Tarot etc indicate just how much Desnari butt the RSA's pikes have kicked over the last couple centuries.

Given how close Silkiah seemed to have modeled itself on the republic's economy, and how well they got along before the SoS, I think a treaty with the allies guaranteeing its borders, especially the new southern one in the middle of North Watch, will be quite popular with nearly all Silkians.

L

JeffEngel wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi Isilith,

Neither Jeff nor I accused you of saying the alliance wanted or intended to conquer or enslave Silkiah, indeed the term I've always preferred is 'liberate' [in the process of taking the canal ], though some other posters didn't like it; but annexing it etc is quite unnecessary, and as Puerto Rico has demonstrated, colonies can be a pain.

Well, for my part, I have read Isilith as being a lot more assertive about putting Silkiah in the EoC without much regard for what Silkiahans want, and that seems to have been a stronger impression than he wanted to convey.

More to the point, Charis is already providing all those benefits you cited to Siddamark, courtesy of a treaty, which doesn't require incorporation into the EoC.

NTM, this has been a subject of several threads over the years, many of them started by me.

Given that we know very little about Silkiah and absolutely nothing about the Grand Duke of Silkiah [aside from his existence], except that he's quietly supported the smuggling despite Clyntahn's threats, that probably included assassination if it had been possible; which says to me that the GDS may be a fairly popular guy, and might easily remain the GDS or even be elected the equivalent of 'Lord Protector', were Silkiah to lean towards the republic which it very well might, since it was the republic's pressure on Desnar that created the Grand Duchy in the first place, but I don't see the allies even suggesting that Silkiah change its form of government, because offering simple true independence, is more than a big enough prize for most Silkians I expect to prefer the alliance over the temple and Desnar.

The Wiki at least refers to Siddarmark's expansion into the Grand Duchy and Desnair, halted by the Treaty of Silk Town. That suggests that the Grand Duchy wasn't created then, but rather was a pre-existing state likely to fall to Siddarmark. (It doesn't, notably, indicate whether or not it was inclined to join Siddarmark peacefully; inclined by some Silkiahans to do so; or threatened with outright conquest.) Silkiahan accents sounding Desnairian suggests that the Grand Duchy may have been a breakaway portion of Desnair, perhaps conducting a negotiation with Siddarmark for alliance, protectorate status, or annexation over time, halted by the Church lest Desnair get overwhelmed or cut off from Haven or Siddarmark get too powerful.

Chances are though that Silkiah had to have been Desnairian at some point, even apart from the accent, just because Siddarmark has no Desnairian border and would have to go through Silkiah or Dohlar or water to get to Desnair, or vice versa. That may be the best support for taking the Wiki references (at least) as poor phrasing and Silkiah for having been established with the Treaty of Silk Town. That was only one generation ago though, so it's unclear what sort of national identity Silkiahans have - apart from being irritated at being confused with Desnairians.

Despite the fact that we see the war shifting to the alliance, not everyone does, and I suspect many if not most Silkians wouldn't want to get any closer to Charis or the republic than they have to right now.

If Silkiah did join Charis, how soon before Clyntahn triggered another SoS inside Silkiah and created a civil war and worse?

Even if he couldn't, primarily due to time constraints, how many Silkiahans would believe he would as soon as he could, and thus oppose any such union as you propose?

IIRC, the forum consensus was that the Silkians would prefer to become truly independent for the first time, rather than subject themselves again to more foreigners, NTM even further distant, however benign.

Normal trade and diplomatic ties as Jeff pointed out may be more important now in the near term as demonstrating the alliance isn't going to conquer and expropriate everyone and everything.

Getting closer than they have to to Charis, or Siddarmark, does carry those risks. But how much choice will they have? However much Charis may be happy to give them, Clyntahn figures anyone who isn't a frothing heretic-killer is a heretic. Them or us. You can't even submit to occupation without being written off as a heretic. So Silkiah can have a constant guerrilla war against an occupation by its real friends that its real friends cannot afford, that would destroy the nation entirely - or stand up, accept this as a liberation, and assert itself as an ally of Siddarmark and Charis. (Or, if it had any reason to, an annex-ee of one or the other.) It's not buying relief from risk of retribution without paying for it with its own national existence, much as it may like to have that kind of option. The Sword of Schueler made that all too clear already.

Then step back and look at it from Charis's position; preserving her vast ocean moats, rather than getting entangled in any continental state [wisdom is avoiding a land war in Asia-"Princess Bride"] that could potentially turn into a quagmire that is to be avoided like the plague.

Read Sharleyan's wisdom in BHD again, as well as remembering "England has no permanent friends, but she has permanent interests" etc as guides to the EoC's foreign policy keys.

L

Of course, on Charis' side, that's an option that no longer exists either. Alliance with Siddarmark gets it in that war now, because it needs those mainland allies. It had two mainland friends, but Silkiah fell under the shadow of the Sword of Schueler and Siddarmark got sliced in half from it. It's working to restore Siddarmark and it's surely going to do it for Silkiah, but it's going to have those continental wars for as long as the Temple is capable of turning the whole mainland against it.

Still, in the longer term, it's an argument against annexation over alliance. You've got no flexibility with annexation. An alliance with Silkiah, in which you help Silkiah get to stand up for its own interests, means you can back off or reposition as need be - and flexible diplomacy is a hallmark of an island empire.

That wouldn't apply to Siddarmark though, and for all I know of Silkiah's history, maybe they were angling for a closer relationship of some sort there before the Church meddled.

Hi Don,

Yep, it was a very good post.

IIRC, I think such guarantees had been suggested a long time ago, before you joined the forum, but great ideas never get old.

The potential example a free and independent Silkiah offers anyone trying to get out of the war, like Dohlar or the BS by this summer or fall, multiplies the allied combat power by focusing it on their true enemies while the smart ones get out of the way.

Silkiah ought to be able to maintain a fairly large army due to its proximity to the equator and potentially 3 crops a year, and its excellent economy Clyntahn has ruined [but only temporarily], perhaps 425,000 active [same ratio as Siddarmark's] and 600,000+ militia when complete in a couple of years, which certainly ought to deter Desnar and Dohlar.

L

n7axw wrote:*quote="JeffEngel"**quote="lyonheart"*Hi Isilith,

Neither Jeff nor I accused you of saying the alliance wanted or intended to conquer or enslave Silkiah, indeed the term I've always preferred is 'liberate' [in the process of taking the canal ], though some other posters didn't like it; but annexing it etc is quite unnecessary, and as Puerto Rico has demonstrated, colonies can be a pain.*quote*Well, for my part, I have read Isilith as being a lot more assertive about putting Silkiah in the EoC without much regard for what Silkiahans want, and that seems to have been a stronger impression than he wanted to convey.*quote*

More to the point, Charis is already providing all those benefits you cited to Siddamark, courtesy of a treaty, which doesn't require incorporation into the EoC.

NTM, this has been a subject of several threads over the years, many of them started by me.

Given that we know very little about Silkiah and absolutely nothing about the Grand Duke of Silkiah [aside from his existence], except that he's quietly supported the smuggling despite Clyntahn's threats, that probably included assassination if it had been possible; which says to me that the GDS may be a fairly popular guy, and might easily remain the GDS or even be elected the equivalent of 'Lord Protector', were Silkiah to lean towards the republic which it very well might, since it was the republic's pressure on Desnar that created the Grand Duchy in the first place, but I don't see the allies even suggesting that Silkiah change its form of government, because offering simple true independence, is more than a big enough prize for most Silkians I expect to prefer the alliance over the temple and Desnar.

The Wiki at least refers to Siddarmark's expansion into the Grand Duchy and Desnair, halted by the Treaty of Silk Town. That suggests that the Grand Duchy wasn't created then, but rather was a pre-existing state likely to fall to Siddarmark. (It doesn't, notably, indicate whether or not it was inclined to join Siddarmark peacefully; inclined by some Silkiahans to do so; or threatened with outright conquest.) Silkiahan accents sounding Desnairian suggests that the Grand Duchy may have been a breakaway portion of Desnair, perhaps conducting a negotiation with Siddarmark for alliance, protectorate status, or annexation over time, halted by the Church lest Desnair get overwhelmed or cut off from Haven or Siddarmark get too powerful.

Chances are though that Silkiah had to have been Desnairian at some point, even apart from the accent, just because Siddarmark has no Desnairian border and would have to go through Silkiah or Dohlar or water to get to Desnair, or vice versa. That may be the best support for taking the Wiki references (at least) as poor phrasing and Silkiah for having been established with the Treaty of Silk Town. That was only one generation ago though, so it's unclear what sort of national identity Silkiahans have - apart from being irritated at being confused with Desnairians.

Despite the fact that we see the war shifting to the alliance, not everyone does, and I suspect many if not most Silkians wouldn't want to get any closer to Charis or the republic than they have to right now.

If Silkiah did join Charis, how soon before Clyntahn triggered another SoS inside Silkiah and created a civil war and worse?

Even if he couldn't, primarily due to time constraints, how many Silkiahans would believe he would as soon as he could, and thus oppose any such union as you propose?

IIRC, the forum consensus was that the Silkians would prefer to become truly independent for the first time, rather than subject themselves again to more foreigners, NTM even further distant, however benign.

Normal trade and diplomatic ties as Jeff pointed out may be more important now in the near term as demonstrating the alliance isn't going to conquer and expropriate everyone and everything.

Getting closer than they have to to Charis, or Siddarmark, does carry those risks. But how much choice will they have? However much Charis may be happy to give them, Clyntahn figures anyone who isn't a frothing heretic-killer is a heretic. Them or us. You can't even submit to occupation without being written off as a heretic. So Silkiah can have a constant guerrilla war against an occupation by its real friends that its real friends cannot afford, that would destroy the nation entirely - or stand up, accept this as a liberation, and assert itself as an ally of Siddarmark and Charis. (Or, if it had any reason to, an annex-ee of one or the other.) It's not buying relief from risk of retribution without paying for it with its own national existence, much as it may like to have that kind of option. The Sword of Schueler made that all too clear already.

Then step back and look at it from Charis's position; preserving her vast ocean moats, rather than getting entangled in any continental state [wisdom is avoiding a land war in Asia-"Princess Bride"] that could potentially turn into a quagmire that is to be avoided like the plague.

Read Sharleyan's wisdom in BHD again, as well as remembering "England has no permanent friends, but she has permanent interests" etc as guides to the EoC's foreign policy keys.

L*quote*
Of course, on Charis' side, that's an option that no longer exists either. Alliance with Siddarmark gets it in that war now, because it needs those mainland allies. It had two mainland friends, but Silkiah fell under the shadow of the Sword of Schueler and Siddarmark got sliced in half from it. It's working to restore Siddarmark and it's surely going to do it for Silkiah, but it's going to have those continental wars for as long as the Temple is capable of turning the whole mainland against it.

Still, in the longer term, it's an argument against annexation over alliance. You've got no flexibility with annexation. An alliance with Silkiah, in which you help Silkiah get to stand up for its own interests, means you can back off or reposition as need be - and flexible diplomacy is a hallmark of an island empire.

That wouldn't apply to Siddarmark though, and for all I know of Silkiah's history, maybe they were angling for a closer relationship of some sort there before the Church meddled.*quote*

A nice post JeffEngel...I had been thinking that becoming part of the Republic might be in Silkiah's best interests. But I think you've changed my mind...

Perhaps eventually....when it is timely to so so... a joint guarantee of Silkiah's independence by both Siddarmark and the EOC.

Don

lyonheart wrote:Hi Don,

Yep, it was a very good post.

IIRC, I think such guarantees had been suggested a long time ago, before you joined the forum, but great ideas never get old.

The potential example a free and independent Silkiah offers anyone trying to get out of the war, like Dohlar or the BS by this summer or fall, multiplies the allied combat power by focusing it on their true enemies while the smart ones get out of the way.

Silkiah ought to be able to maintain a fairly large army due to its proximity to the equator and potentially 3 crops a year, and its excellent economy Clyntahn has ruined [but only temporarily], perhaps 425,000 active [same ratio as Siddarmark's] and 600,000+ militia when complete in a couple of years, which certainly ought to deter Desnar and Dohlar.

L

"Greater Silkiah", including the entire southern shore of the Gulf of Jahras and a good distance inland, would satisfy a lot of bloody-minded sorts here who would like to get that body of water and the North Watch Isthmus out of Desnairian hands. It would also be a power that could be a real peer for Siddarmark and Charis.

My biggest concern with it is that North Watch and the Duchy of Kholman wouldn't be restfully Silkiahan - or Siddarmarker or Charisian. And none of them need a hard time with occupations, now or in the near future.

One tool that may help is the Charisian possession of the Duke of Kholman as an exile. Assuming the forces on the ground can support it eventually, they could offer him support to reclaim his duchy - as a large part of Greater Silkiah, in fealty to the Grand Duke (Greatest Duke! Prince already...) with Charisian eyes watching his every move.

Or Kholman could be a Charisian foothold on the mainland. It still seems like a bad policy to annex mainland territory, but that'd at least be an annexation of enemy territory, and another signal to other states that (1) annexation IS on the table, so watch yourselves, but also (2) nobles who want to break off from an enemy state can become nicely established Charisian nobles.

Hi JeffEngel,

My southern border for Silkiah is somewhat more conservative [ ] than yours, going to only the narrow north-south mountainous neck between Haven and Howard in North Watch as the most defensible border, leaving Kholman and Hankey entirely alone.

Those Desnari that want to leave Silkiah and North Watch are more than free to do so, the allies and Silkiah may actually help pay or provide the transportation, possibly even offering to protect their abandoned property until they get reasonable offers based on pre war values.

Such consideration from their supposed enemies can only make some of those Desnari wonder who's really their enemy when their own government isn't as helpful.

L

JeffEngel wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi Don,

Yep, it was a very good post.

IIRC, I think such guarantees had been suggested a long time ago, before you joined the forum, but great ideas never get old.

The potential example a free and independent Silkiah offers anyone trying to get out of the war, like Dohlar or the BS by this summer or fall, multiplies the allied combat power by focusing it on their true enemies while the smart ones get out of the way.

Silkiah ought to be able to maintain a fairly large army due to its proximity to the equator and potentially 3 crops a year, and its excellent economy Clyntahn has ruined [but only temporarily], perhaps 425,000 active [same ratio as Siddarmark's] and 600,000+ militia when complete in a couple of years, which certainly ought to deter Desnar and Dohlar.

L

"Greater Silkiah", including the entire southern shore of the Gulf of Jahras and a good distance inland, would satisfy a lot of bloody-minded sorts here who would like to get that body of water and the North Watch Isthmus out of Desnairian hands. It would also be a power that could be a real peer for Siddarmark and Charis.

My biggest concern with it is that North Watch and the Duchy of Kholman wouldn't be restfully Silkiahan - or Siddarmarker or Charisian. And none of them need a hard time with occupations, now or in the near future.

One tool that may help is the Charisian possession of the Duke of Kholman as an exile. Assuming the forces on the ground can support it eventually, they could offer him support to reclaim his duchy - as a large part of Greater Silkiah, in fealty to the Grand Duke (Greatest Duke! Prince already...) with Charisian eyes watching his every move.

Or Kholman could be a Charisian foothold on the mainland. It still seems like a bad policy to annex mainland territory, but that'd at least be an annexation of enemy territory, and another signal to other states that (1) annexation IS on the table, so watch yourselves, but also (2) nobles who want to break off from an enemy state can become nicely established Charisian nobles.

lyonheart wrote:Hi JeffEngel,

My southern border for Silkiah is somewhat more conservative [ ] than yours, going to only the narrow north-south mountainous neck between Haven and Howard in North Watch as the most defensible border, leaving Kholman and Hankey entirely alone.

Those Desnari that want to leave Silkiah and North Watch are more than free to do so, the allies and Silkiah may actually help pay or provide the transportation, possibly even offering to protect their abandoned property until they get reasonable offers based on pre war values.

Such consideration from their supposed enemies can only make some of those Desnari wonder who's really their enemy when their own government isn't as helpful.

L

I'd hesitate to call it "my" southern border for Silkiah - I'm just considering a possibility that seems popular in these parts. My southern border for Silkiah runs only about as far south as it takes before you start getting large numbers of people who don't want to be Silkiahan, but hopefully far south enough to be secure. (And no, I have no helpful idea where that first part would put us. Far north of Ferayd....)

At the least southerly, it should probably run along the north shore of that huge lake between the bulk of North Watch and the Gulf of Mathyas so that Silkiah doesn't have so much southern land border when a small border adjustment can drastically reduce it.

If North Watch wanted to be Silkiah too, then the equator would be an obvious border and not nearly so long as some alternatives.

JeffEngel wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi JeffEngel,

My southern border for Silkiah is somewhat more conservative [ ] than yours, going to only the narrow north-south mountainous neck between Haven and Howard in North Watch as the most defensible border, leaving Kholman and Hankey entirely alone.

Those Desnari that want to leave Silkiah and North Watch are more than free to do so, the allies and Silkiah may actually help pay or provide the transportation, possibly even offering to protect their abandoned property until they get reasonable offers based on pre war values.

Such consideration from their supposed enemies can only make some of those Desnari wonder who's really their enemy when their own government isn't as helpful.

L

I'd hesitate to call it "my" southern border for Silkiah - I'm just considering a possibility that seems popular in these parts. My southern border for Silkiah runs only about as far south as it takes before you start getting large numbers of people who don't want to be Silkiahan, but hopefully far south enough to be secure. (And no, I have no helpful idea where that first part would put us. Far north of Ferayd....)

At the least southerly, it should probably run along the north shore of that huge lake between the bulk of North Watch and the Gulf of Mathyas so that Silkiah doesn't have so much southern land border when a small border adjustment can drastically reduce it.

If North Watch wanted to be Silkiah too, then the equator would be an obvious border and not nearly so long as some alternatives.

My own idea would be a bit more modest. Have the border along that range of mountains just south of the Salthar canal. The alliance's only serious interest in Desnair is in making sure they stay home and tend to their own knitting.

Don

Those of you who seem to think that the RoS and EoC are going to just hug and make up confuse me.

I know all of you have read the books, and the books clearly imply just how eagerly the BS supported the SoS and invasion of of the RoS... in fact, in the books, it points out that armies out of the BS were waiting to pour across the border, even before the AoG.

I can only assume, since we never directly see an army labeled as a BS army, that they were absorbed by the marching AoG, or integrated into RoS TL units. Such integration was what happened in Glacierheart.

That said, there is about zero chance that the allies overlook how eagerly the BS tried to bring down the RoS. Which is one huge reason I am fully expecting the BS to turn into western provinces of the RoS. The RoS is going to make it certain that they can never do anything against the RoS again.

Isilith wrote:Those of you who seem to think that the RoS and EoC are going to just hug and make up confuse me.

I know all of you have read the books, and the books clearly imply just how eagerly the BS supported the SoS and invasion of of the RoS... in fact, in the books, it points out that armies out of the BS were waiting to pour across the border, even before the AoG.

I can only assume, since we never directly see an army labeled as a BS army, that they were absorbed by the marching AoG, or integrated into RoS TL units. Such integration was what happened in Glacierheart.

That said, there is about zero chance that the allies overlook how eagerly the BS tried to bring down the RoS. Which is one huge reason I am fully expecting the BS to turn into western provinces of the RoS. The RoS is going to make it certain that they can never do anything against the RoS again.

Too many acronyms.

But seriously, I am having trouble understanding what you are saying.