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Spoken Languages In The Honorverse ...

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Spoken Languages In The Honorverse ...
Post by SWM   » Sun Aug 02, 2015 6:58 pm

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cthia wrote:I can easily get on this bus. I've preached since I first joined the forum that language is not a static phenomena, nor should it be. Language is meant to evolve. It is derived from experiences and a need to communicate. Experiences are forever changing. Language learns itself.

Demographics strongly influences language. A space- faring species would have many experiences foreign to one who is not. Etc.

If the story of the Tower of Babel bears some semblance of truth and mankind initially spoke one language then that was a very powerful language, if only from a spoken commonality. If indeed a God scattered the people to hinder their communication and as a result there ensued a babbling, then language inherently enjoys an innate momentum to relearn itself.

I communicated this at length with a professor regarding my thoughts after I read a paper of hers.
https://www.njcu.edu/cill/vol4/mascali.html

Cthia,

May I recommend Snow Crash, by Neal Stephenson? As my daughter said recently after I introduced her to it, "Any book that can plausibly intertwine Sumerian mythology, Chomskian linguistics, and virtual reality has to be interesting."
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Re: Spoken Languages In The Honorverse ...
Post by kzt   » Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:41 pm

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SWM wrote:May I recommend Snow Crash, by Neal Stephenson? As my daughter said recently after I introduced her to it, "Any book that can plausibly intertwine Sumerian mythology, Chomskian linguistics, and virtual reality has to be interesting."

Snow Crash is completely insane. But great.
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Re: Spoken Languages In The Honorverse ...
Post by cthia   » Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:52 pm

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kzt wrote:
SWM wrote:May I recommend Snow Crash, by Neal Stephenson? As my daughter said recently after I introduced her to it, "Any book that can plausibly intertwine Sumerian mythology, Chomskian linguistics, and virtual reality has to be interesting."

Snow Crash is completely insane. But great.

I'm certainly going to check it out as well. Thanks for the recommendation.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Spoken Languages In The Honorverse ...
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:56 pm

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Bollywood? Hindi?
There is a good movie playing now "Bajrangi Bhaijaan"
A six (6) year old Pakistani girl, mute,
taken by her mother to a Muslim shrine in Delhi, but
gets separated from her trying to re-cross the Border.

Telugu? "Bahubali" is still in theaters, a Fantasy
about a Kingdom that must be saved from Invaders and
Traitors by Superheroes and Superheroines.
(Warning: this is Part 1 of 2.)

Watch one of them; tell us how much dialog you got.
I dare you!

H T Map-addict

Relax wrote:Hey, I am just happy my first language is English, my second is Spanish. Pretty much covers the world currently.

I always find it interesting watching foreign films and noting how much of their own dialog I can understand without subbing. It is frankly quite a bit.
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Re: Spoken Languages In The Honorverse ...
Post by kenl511   » Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:19 pm

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I have three quotes regarding English that seem less inappropriate here:

H Beam Piper: English is the result of Norman men at arms trying to get dates with Saxon barmaids; and is as legitimate as any other outcome of that activity. (Fuzzy Sapiens, Grego talking to Mallin when promoting him to "Chief Fuzzylogist)

A Tshirt I got at a World Con: English does not borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.

And my personal favorite, a quote from a Philologist in the Documentary "The Story of English" (I can't remember his name) : English is the most promiscuous language in the world today.

I love my language. Really, I do. Part of what I love about it is its lower class origins and sheer direputability.
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Re: Spoken Languages In The Honorverse ...
Post by Rincewind   » Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:52 pm

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Relax wrote:
Tenshinai wrote:Japanese is more likely to work on the Philippines and a few other places than English is,


No one knows Japanese in the Philippines. No one knows Japanese outside of Japan by and large. More know Chinese in the Philippines than Japanese.

English in the Philippines is actually a creol language. IT IS one of two language franca's of the Philippines. Most phone call centers are being based in the Philippines because of their EXCELLENT ENGLISH language pronunciation. You can go anywhere and speak English in the Philippines and almost everyone knows it unless in the deep countryside. When I was there near 30 years ago this was true. I am sure this has changed since then to some degree. Their literature is in English quite often. When I was there, their text books in many schools were in English. This has changed since then as many texts have been introduced in Tagalog(filipino to everyone else in the world). It is the base language of commerce and government in the Philippines. This is slowly changing to Tagalog which incorporates large portions of English part native, part Spanish, part Chinese. Tagalog is essentially becoming a bastard language like English already is.

This is true for many countries where a written language is a very recent addition. Many countries in Africa, English is what they write in. Take Nigeria for instance. 200Million people and their government literature is in English! Pretty much any place the British Empire existed for over a hundred years in Africa, all of the official language of government is in English. The population may not know how to speak it fluently but many can read it. This influence is obviously waning with the break-up of the British empire in the 60's.

Will Mandarin make inroads into Language Franca? Not until China starts letting its massive population move of its own accord it will not. For over 200 years the worlds language franca has been English because of the British Empire built in the 1700's. Will English die out as language Franca? All depends on economics.

Another driving factor is computers allowing quick transcript of the written language into your own. I would predict all of those countries that built by the British Empire to completely eliminate the English language as their governance language. Now this will also percolate into business and engineering where nearly every publication in the world in business and engineering is published in English. Engineering standards. Business practice standards etc.

Spanish overall probably would be a better language franca than anything else. At least one can read/write it easily unlike ENGLISH!


I would venture to disagree with that last point. A few years ago a Spanish friend of mine told me of an incident where he had been following a South American film. He said that he could not understand a word that they were saying & that the only way he was able to understand it was by reading the English subtitles.
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Re: Spoken Languages In The Honorverse ...
Post by saber964   » Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:15 pm

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Rincewind"[quote="Relax"[quote="Tenshinai wrote:Japanese is more likely to work on the Philippines and a few other places than English is,


No one knows Japanese in the Philippines. No one knows Japanese outside of Japan by and large. More know Chinese in the Philippines than Japanese.

English in the Philippines is actually a creol language. IT IS one of two language franca's of the Philippines. Most phone call centers are being based in the Philippines because of their EXCELLENT ENGLISH language pronunciation. You can go anywhere and speak English in the Philippines and almost everyone knows it unless in the deep countryside. When I was there near 30 years ago this was true. I am sure this has changed since then to some degree. Their literature is in English quite often. When I was there, their text books in many schools were in English. This has changed since then as many texts have been introduced in Tagalog(filipino to everyone else in the world). It is the base language of commerce and government in the Philippines. This is slowly changing to Tagalog which incorporates large portions of English part native, part Spanish, part Chinese. Tagalog is essentially becoming a bastard language like English already is.

This is true for many countries where a written language is a very recent addition. Many countries in Africa, English is what they write in. Take Nigeria for instance. 200Million people and their government literature is in English! Pretty much any place the British Empire existed for over a hundred years in Africa, all of the official language of government is in English. The population may not know how to speak it fluently but many can read it. This influence is obviously waning with the break-up of the British empire in the 60's.

Will Mandarin make inroads into Language Franca? Not until China starts letting its massive population move of its own accord it will not. For over 200 years the worlds language franca has been English because of the British Empire built in the 1700's. Will English die out as language Franca? All depends on economics.

Another driving factor is computers allowing quick transcript of the written language into your own. I would predict all of those countries that built by the British Empire to completely eliminate the English language as their governance language. Now this will also percolate into business and engineering where nearly every publication in the world in business and engineering is published in English. Engineering standards. Business practice standards etc.

Spanish overall probably would be a better language franca than anything else. At least one can read/write it easily unlike ENGLISH![/quote]

I would venture to disagree with that last point. A few years ago a Spanish friend of mine told me of an incident where he had been following a South American film. He said that he could not understand a word that they were saying & that the only way he was able to understand it was by reading the English subtitles.[/quote]


It depends on which South American Nation, Several of them speak hybrid languages, usually an indigenous native language or two and either Spanish Dutch English and Portuguese.
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Re: Spoken Languages In The Honorverse ...
Post by wyrm   » Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:38 pm

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Relax wrote:Another driving factor is computers allowing quick transcript of the written language into your own. I would predict all of those countries that built by the British Empire to completely eliminate the English language as their governance language.

In many of these countries, English is strongly supported by much of the population. In both India and Nigeria, the largest language group attempted to change the system so that their language was made the 'National language'. The minority groups resisted this, as it would disadvantage them (compared to the largest group), and English was maintained as a 'neutral' language with all benefiting/suffering equally.
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Re: Spoken Languages In The Honorverse ...
Post by JohnRoth   » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:47 pm

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wyrm wrote:
Relax wrote:Another driving factor is computers allowing quick transcript of the written language into your own. I would predict all of those countries that built by the British Empire to completely eliminate the English language as their governance language.

In many of these countries, English is strongly supported by much of the population. In both India and Nigeria, the largest language group attempted to change the system so that their language was made the 'National language'. The minority groups resisted this, as it would disadvantage them (compared to the largest group), and English was maintained as a 'neutral' language with all benefiting/suffering equally.


I don't know about the situation in Nigeria, but it's quite true about India. The Hindus are not going to accept Arabic as a national language, and the Muslims are not going to accept Hindi as a national language. That doesn't even account for the dozens, if not hundreds, of local languages.

India might well accept something else as a national language, as long as it isn't either Arabic or Hindi. There is no love lost for memories of the British Empire, and very little love lost for the American Empire. There just doesn't happen to be a viable candidate present - even on the horizon.

The United States is one of the largest nations - possibly the largest - where essentially everyone speaks the same language. And we've got another big nation to the north (ignoring Quebec) where everyone speaks the same language. That tends to warp our perception of the situation elsewhere. Most of us have got no experience where learning a common lingua franca that is not our birth language is a standard experience that's required to move about in the world.
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Re: Spoken Languages In The Honorverse ...
Post by John Prigent   » Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:14 am

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I don't know if their system has changed since I was there many years ago, but Tanzanian friends told me that they have two official languages - English and Kiswahili - that are taught in schools, plus whichever of the tribal/local languages is learnt and used at home.
Cheers
John

wyrm wrote:
Relax wrote:Another driving factor is computers allowing quick transcript of the written language into your own. I would predict all of those countries that built by the British Empire to completely eliminate the English language as their governance language.

In many of these countries, English is strongly supported by much of the population. In both India and Nigeria, the largest language group attempted to change the system so that their language was made the 'National language'. The minority groups resisted this, as it would disadvantage them (compared to the largest group), and English was maintained as a 'neutral' language with all benefiting/suffering equally.
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