What I see as Charis's biggest problem

Can't remember exactly but I think it was mention that in the first book that they did have something to prohibit steam power but not water power because the Archangels forgot that industrial revolution on Earth began with water power first rather than steam power.

Even if steam powered is prohibited, I suspect it can be broken same way as how gunpowder got through. Just get one of the Mother Church's allies like a Hanchong noble to 'discover' it without realizing it's full potential and then Charis would be free to use steam power for whatever purpose once it's approved.

Brog wrote:Can't remember exactly but I think it was mention that in the first book that they did have something to prohibit steam power but not water power because the Archangels forgot that industrial revolution on Earth began with water power first rather than steam power.

Even if steam powered is prohibited, I suspect it can be broken same way as how gunpowder got through. Just get one of the Mother Church's allies like a Hanchong noble to 'discover' it without realizing it's full potential and then Charis would be free to use steam power for whatever purpose once it's approved.

I remember the passage you’re talking about. I don’t remember anything about it being invented by a Harchongese noble, but Merlin suspected that a large bribe was involved. The only problem is that even if the mainland church did accept a bribe and approve this new innovation, I don’t think Father Paityr would go along with it. He is adamantly opposed to corruption of that sort and if an honest reading of the proscriptions indicates that it is prohibited, that’s what he’ll say. In fact, it’s his job within the Charis Patent Office to rule on whether any new innovations violate the proscriptions.

John Driver wrote:

Brog wrote:Can't remember exactly but I think it was mention that in the first book that they did have something to prohibit steam power but not water power because the Archangels forgot that industrial revolution on Earth began with water power first rather than steam power.

Even if steam powered is prohibited, I suspect it can be broken same way as how gunpowder got through. Just get one of the Mother Church's allies like a Hanchong noble to 'discover' it without realizing it's full potential and then Charis would be free to use steam power for whatever purpose once it's approved.

I remember the passage you’re talking about. I don’t remember anything about it being invented by a Harchongese noble, but Merlin suspected that a large bribe was involved. The only problem is that even if the mainland church did accept a bribe and approve this new innovation, I don’t think Father Paityr would go along with it. He is adamantly opposed to corruption of that sort and if an honest reading of the proscriptions indicates that it is prohibited, that’s what he’ll say. In fact, it’s his job within the Charis Patent Office to rule on whether any new innovations violate the proscriptions.

I need to go through the books and see if DW specifically lists steam power as a forbidden technology.

Sheriff Yoda wrote:

John Driver wrote:

Brog wrote:
I don’t think Father Paityr would go along with it. He is adamantly opposed to corruption of that sort and if an honest reading of the proscriptions indicates that it is prohibited, that’s what he’ll say. In fact, it’s his job within the Charis Patent Office to rule on whether any new innovations violate the proscriptions.

I know that he is honest in a fairly deep sense of the word. However, he has been presented with some strong motivation to be a little less strict.

Also, "women are more practical than men" (my mother's words) and he has (at least) three seriously angry women who have a claim on his time. I can't help but wonder how that is going to play out.

It would be interesting to see if they could influence him into allowing a "shortcut" (whatever it might be) that would allow them to settle some scores. How long can his strictness hold out in the face of the motivation that the average woman is prepared to use? I suspect that peace and quiet could become rather important to him after a while. Experience, both person and historical, would say sooner rather than later.

walt wrote:
I know that he is honest in a fairly deep sense of the word. However, he has been presented with some strong motivation to be a little less strict.

Also, "women are more practical than men" (my mother's words) and he has (at least) three seriously angry women who have a claim on his time. I can't help but wonder how that is going to play out.

It would be interesting to see if they could influence him into allowing a "shortcut" (whatever it might be) that would allow them to settle some scores. How long can his strictness hold out in the face of the motivation that the average woman is prepared to use? I suspect that peace and quiet could become rather important to him after a while. Experience, both person and historical, would say sooner rather than later.

If the proscriptions were vague on the subject, and it could be legitimately argued both ways (allowed or disallowed) then that would make a difference. Given the original intent of the proscriptions, I would think that Jwo-Jeng made it pretty clear and unambiguous that steam power was prohibited. I might be wrong on that. David Weber hasn’t given us any text evidence as to how comprehensive and detailed the proscriptions are. Even if the proscriptions are really loosely worded and people could get around them easily, Merlin can’t afford to push too hard in that direction or innovations might abound too much and the orbital weapons platform might detect it and wipe out a big segment of humanity.

As far as the influence of the women in Father Paityr’s life, if by “practical” you mean they would push him to reason his way around something about which the writ is pretty clear, I don’t think these women would push things in that direction. That smacks of the blatant corruption that’s all too prevalent in the Church of God Awaiting. I’m not even sure they would get involved in the proscriptions. Nynian would wind up heading a department to safely evacuate refugees from the mainland. Adorai would probably continue her propaganda efforts to publicize the corruption of the Church of God Awaiting. I’m not sure what Father Paityr’s sister would wind up doing. We just know that she’s married and has a child named after her father.

If by “practical” you mean they would scoot things along in a practical direction if the writ were unclear, you’ve got a point.

I would have to think that it is possible that the Proscriptions are at least somewhat loosely worded. The main problem with writing something like the proscriptions is to get it tight enough to strangle whatever you are trying to but not detailed enough to give whoever you are trying to control ideas.

Something that I haven't seen mentioned is that to build steam engines it is necessary to have access to low cost mass produced steel. Currently, steel is only produced in very limited quantities which suggests that not only is very little of it available but it is also rather expensive.

Something else to think about is that steam engines did not appear suddenly as we know them today. The first practical steam engine was the Newcomen engine and it was basically used to drive water pumps at mines. That suggests to me that once sufficient steel becomes available it would actually be more useful for someplace like Siddamark.

Having Siddamark build the first stream engine is a classic Xanatos Gambit. If it's accepted by the GO4, Charis with it's superior technology would be able to quickly improve it to the point that it becomes useful. However,if the GO4 reject it after the general population has seen how useful it is then it will foster resentment from the Siddarmark population against the GO4.

The trick would be to find someone in Siddamark that could credible build a prototype Newcomen steam engine and to get the local church in Siddarmark to sign off on it not bring against the Proscriptions. That way it would be already be in use by the time the GO4 could react to it.

[quote="Easternmystic"]Something that I haven't seen mentioned is that to build steam engines it is necessary to have access to low cost mass produced steel. Currently, steel is only produced in very limited quantities which suggests that not only is very little of it available but it is also rather expensive.

Something else to think about is that steam engines did not appear suddenly as we know them today. The first practical steam engine was the Newcomen engine and it was basically used to drive water pumps at mines. That suggests to me that once sufficient steel becomes available it would actually be more useful for someplace like Siddamark.

Having Siddamark build the first stream engine is a classic Xanatos Gambit. If it's accepted by the GO4, Charis with it's superior technology would be able to quickly improve it to the point that it becomes useful. However,if the GO4 reject it after the general population has seen how useful it is then it will foster resentment from the Siddarmark population against the GO4.

The trick would be to find someone in Siddamark that could credible build a prototype Newcomen steam engine and to get the local church in Siddarmark to sign off on it not bring against the Proscriptions. That way it would be already be in use by the time the GO4 could react to it.[/quote]

Hi Easter-mystic,

You might consider reading some past threads as these ideas have already been threshed about and its unlikely many wish to revisit dead horses.

First, mass production means different things to different people perhaps, but Charis steel is at least in the puddling production stage, which is a relatively much higher volume production than you may be supposing. Bessemer production really didn't take off until the mid 1870's, about 20 years after he patented the concept.

Secondly, the implication has been from the very beginning in OAR, that steam power was proscribed, nor will the potential for the Go4 to somehow adopt it mean that Charis could immediately grab it, certainly not until father Peter and many others reconsider many things, which easily take a couple of years.
Thirdly, given the antipathy the Go4 has for Siddarmark, having someone there 'invent' the steam engine would not make the Go4 love or tolerate Siddarmark any more. Rather I suspect such an invention might poison the Go4's attitude towards Siddarmark even further. A Harchong toymaker, who's a cousin of the emperor, might get more of a sympathetic result from a demonstration.

As I recall, the Newcomen engine used cast iron, copper and lead, not steel, nor did the Savery engine use steel either.

At the end of the second book BHD, in the fall of 892 YoG, the delay in leaving Tellesburg of ten days added several thousand rifles to the expedition(6-8K, depending on your your definition of several) for a daily production of 600-800 (700 as an daily average?), which implies annual production between 168,000 to 210,000 rifles (the lower figure if no work is done on Wednesdays) which is 3-4 times the size of the expeditionary force. A year later re-equipping the Chisholm army should have been much further advanced, or its much bigger than most people think.
Such a production rate which was only expected to go up implies an assembly line of some sort, which various other industries; clothing, print, china, etc; have all used in some degree in manufacturing clothes, books and pamphlets etc, not to mention ships, so Merlin evidently didn't feel the need to belabor the advantages of such when they could see for themselves.

Whether it revolver rifles with percussion caps, or complete cartridges and magazine weapons, it will be interesting.

Best wishes,

L

Easternmystic wrote:Something that I haven't seen mentioned is that to build steam engines it is necessary to have access to low cost mass produced steel. Currently, steel is only produced in very limited quantities which suggests that not only is very little of it available but it is also rather expensive.

Something else to think about is that steam engines did not appear suddenly as we know them today. The first practical steam engine was the Newcomen engine and it was basically used to drive water pumps at mines. That suggests to me that once sufficient steel becomes available it would actually be more useful for someplace like Siddamark.

Having Siddamark build the first stream engine is a classic Xanatos Gambit. If it's accepted by the GO4, Charis with it's superior technology would be able to quickly improve it to the point that it becomes useful. However,if the GO4 reject it after the general population has seen how useful it is then it will foster resentment from the Siddarmark population against the GO4.

The trick would be to find someone in Siddamark that could credible build a prototype Newcomen steam engine and to get the local church in Siddarmark to sign off on it not bring against the Proscriptions. That way it would be already be in use by the time the GO4 could react to it.

Steam engines had been around a long time before really high quality steel was availible in quantity. The first steam engine was used as a pump in 1690. So you don't need high quality steel at all to have a steam engine.

Sheriff Yoda wrote:Steam engines had been around a long time before really high quality steel was availible in quantity. The first steam engine was used as a pump in 1690. So you don't need high quality steel at all to have a steam engine.

First of all I never said high quality steel, I said mass produced, low quality steel. They are not necessarily the same thing.

Second, steel making has a history at least as long as steam power. Even neglecting Damascus or Wootz steel.